Engine won't turn over, seems to be seized.

[PULSE]

Hey guys, after spending a couple months installing a 4AGE smallport into my TA22 celica, I finally went to start it and all I hear is a knock from the starter each time I turn the key. I removed the starter and tested it and it works fine out of the car. Then I went to try and turn the engine over by hand (using the crankshaft bolt) and it wouldn't move.

I bought this engine with 60,000ks on it, and I have turned it over before a few times by hand when I took the timing belt off (I knocked the cams out of place so I had to set them all to their marks to put the belt back on). If I remember correctly when I was turning it over by hand it started to get harder towards the end but I got it to the mark so I didn't bother worrying about it. Now, there was no oil in the engine at this stage. I'm not sure how long it sat without oil, would have to ask AJPS.

I am now at the stage where I have removed the engine and gearbox from the car, taken the gearbox off, removed the spark plugs and squirted a little oil with a syringe into each spark plug hole, and it still won't budge at all.

Any ideas what it could be and what I should be doing next to try and fix it?

Thanks in advance, any help is very much appreciated!

Cheers, Matt

[eightsixboy]

If its not your battery then it will be a loose connection somewhere. Check your battery and make sure the terminal connections are tight.

[Rollabender]

Try doing it with a breaker bar + socket.

If that doesn't work then you better start pulling her down.

[PULSE]

eightsixboy - no offence but it doesn't sound like you read the whole post. I can't even turn it over by hand, the starter/electricals are working fine.


Rollabender - Is there any chance of damaging it by putting too much pressure on it? I would like to give it a go with a decent sized breaker bar but if there is something stopping it from turning then I might break something.

[Rollabender]

It's pretty fucking difficult to snap the nose off a crank, but not unheard of. It takes ALOT of force to do it though.

The worst you'll probably do is explode a socket.

[eightsixboy]

:blink: whoops my bad, i read the first 1/4 and immediatley thought connections. sorry.

When you say the cams got moved when taking the timing belt of did you put them back to there marks in the opposite direction they moved in? Maybe one cam is 180 degrees out?

[Rollabender]

This is a possibility, but i was under the distinct impression that all iterations of the 4AG were non-interference, so it wouldn't make much of a difference.

[eightsixboy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rollabender @ Aug 30 2008, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=581602)</div>
This is a possibility, but i was under the distinct impression that all iterations of the 4AG were non-interference, so it wouldn't make much of a difference.[/b]

True.

You wouldn't think a motor would just seize, even if a piston is hitting a valve you can still turn it over untill that point of contact, especially if it hasnt even being started since the belt has been of.

[PULSE]

I'm not 100% sure what you mean eightsixboy about the cams, I just turned them until they were at the marks, didnt take notice of which way I turned them. How would I check if they were out or not?

[ae71]

if you can't get it to budge at all then id be pulling the motor out and pull it down. usually you keep oil in it and turn it over every few weeks or month to make sure that it all stays free moving.

i seem to remember a 3tc that had been sitting for quite a while was quite hard to turn over to start with after it had been turned over a few times it was quite easy.

[malohi]

I found i hard to get my engine turning in my old celica when putting a 2tgeu in it. I found that running some extra earth wires from starter and engine to chassis made a big difference in how much power the starter put out. Ta22s seem to be poor earthers.
If that doesn't help take the timing belt off an try to turn it slowly...

[eightsixboy]

I was thinking that maybe the timing was out one full turn on one cam, as in one cam over advanced or something, but as was pointed out to me before the 4ag's are a non interference motor, and as long as the marks are lined up i don't think you can actually be 360 degrees out cause the cam is in the same position anyways. So stupid comment no.2 for me this post :lol:

Maybe pull the rocker covers off and look for anything obvious stopping it from turning it over, is there anyway something could have dropped into the motor before it was put in your celica?

I would take the belt of again and try turning the cams and crank seperatly.

[350hp4agte]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eightsixboy @ Aug 31 2008, 12:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=581704)</div>
I was thinking that maybe the timing was out one full turn on one cam, as in one cam over advanced or something, but as was pointed out to me before the 4ag's are a non interference motor, and as long as the marks are lined up i don't think you can actually be 360 degrees out cause the cam is in the same position anyways. So stupid comment no.2 for me this post :lol:

Maybe pull the rocker covers off and look for anything obvious stopping it from turning it over, is there anyway something could have dropped into the motor before it was put in your celica?

I would take the belt of again and try turning the cams and crank seperatly.[/b]

i recon your hitting a valve dude, long long time ago i did this with a mate (who was a apprentice machanic) we changed the head gasket then put the head on he set the timming up 180degrees out and the same thing happend we could turn it a little then nothing

so my question is was no. 1 piston at top dead centre when you lined the holes up on your cam gears cause if it wasnt bad news my friend

[greeneyes]

I'd turn it with a socket the opposite way to whatever you turned it before. I assume you turned it clockwise to set the cams, so you turn it anticlockwise now. If it turns at all then you're hitting a valve, so re-do the timing.

If that unscrews the crank pulley bolt then is probably time to whip the head off. If you're sitting with a piston against a valve you don't want to force it.

When I was 15 I bought a burnt-out Armstrong Siddeley Typhoon, and over the three years it took to get it on the road it siezed up. I took the head off (tried a crowbar on the crankhandle dog) and used a rounded bit of 4x4 timber and a sledge hammer to loosen it!!! :lol:

The rings were gummed solid and I thrashed it up and down hills trailing a thick cloud of smoke late at night before it freed up!

[PULSE]

350hp4agte - I'm not sure I didn't check whether it was at top dead center but I lined the crankshaft mark up with the mark on the engine so I would assume that it would be have been/still be at TDC.

greeneyes - I've tried turning it the opposite way but it just undoes the bolt.

Tonight I'm going to pull off the clutch/flywheel, and then if no luck I'll take off the timing belt and see if I can get it to move at all. Because it turned over a month or so ago fine, I suspect I've just installed something wrong, most likely the timing belt or flywheel. And also the fact that it is rock solid, if it had seized in that time, I'd be able to get it move at least a little I would think.

[pebbles]

my guess is flywheel or clutch,,

something fudged up there, not real sure tho

tell us when u find out

[shakes]

random long shot's, it's not accidently in gear when your trying to turn it over? mix that with a dicky starter solinoid and there's ya problem!

don't think I'm taking the piss because it's happened before

[PULSE]

Nah mate I've taken the gearbox off now and its still not turning over.

Small update - I just took the clutch/flywheel off before and still no go. About to go take off the timing belt now and give it another shot.

[PULSE]

Ok bit of progress!

I started removing the plastics covering the timing belt so I could take that off. Got down to the plastic piece behind the crankshaft pulley, so I had to take off the pulley to get that off. I tried to undo the crankshaft bolt with the socket the same way I had been trying to get the motor to turn over(except in the opposite direction) - everytime I had tried to turn the motor over in reverse the bolt just came undone. This time it was difficult to get the bolt undone because the engine was hanging off the engine crane, so I grabbed a rubber mallet and smacked the socket/wrench downwards, and guess what happens...instead of the bolt coming undone, the motor begins to turn over in reverse. I could turn it over in reverse by hand after that, but only to a certain point, turning it over the correct way also stopped at the same point it was stuck at before. So it seems like it is definitely hitting something. Would it be the cam gears/timing belt installed wrong?

Cheers, Matt

[Rollabender]

Yes.

[PULSE]

Well in that case could someone please explain to me how to set the cams/crank up correctly and install the timing belt seeing as I fked it up the first time!

[seek]

how would it be the cams/timing belt? as i was very much under the impression that a 4age is a non-interference engine?

so in essence you could have the cams 180 degrees out of phase and it should still turn over?

[Rollabender]

Ugh.

Piston 1 at TDC.

Cams so inlet has just closed and exhaust will be next to open.

line up timing marks.

Cam gears only go on in one position.

put on belt.

....engine rotates clockwise.

I'm sure someone can give you a much more detailed explanation, i'm tired as fuck.

[Rollabender]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (seek @ Sep 1 2008, 07:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582483)</div>
how would it be the cams/timing belt? as i was very much under the impression that a 4age is a non-interference engine?

so in essence you could have the cams 180 degrees out of phase and it should still turn over?[/b]


Well, in theory they are, but process of elimination has basically brought it down to that.

Unless you've installed something horribly wrong, but considering all you did was the timing belt i can't see what else it would be.

[gumbie]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rollabender @ Sep 1 2008, 08:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582485)</div>
Ugh.

Piston 1 at TDC.

Cams so inlet has just closed and exhaust will be next to open.

line up timing marks.

Cam gears only go on in one position.

put on belt.

....engine rotates clockwise.

I'm sure someone can give you a much more detailed explanation, i'm tired as fuck.[/b]


actually the cam gears will go on in two positions I fucked that up on my motor when I put the head on
make sure that the lobes on the cams are pointing to their respective manifolds


also is it possible that something found its way into the cylinder/s and is sitting under a valve?
did you have the plugs out at all?

[PULSE]

Hey guys, I've found the real problem now. 86 Nick - I only had the plugs out after tit already wouldn't turn over, as I was told it would turn over easier with them out. They were only out for maybe half an hour at a time, about 3 times now over the last few days.

Heres the updated I posted on toymods:

Ok i took the crank bolt and pulley off, then removed the timing belt, this made it a little easier to turn but it still got stuck at the same points. When it got to these points it wasnt a dead hit it was sort of grinding. Someone on another forum said it sounded like I wasn't putting enough oil in the bores. Now comes the interesting part.

When I put oil in the bores the first time, I used a full syringe of clean oil, and divided it equally into each cylinder, through the spark plug hole. I decided to add the same amount the second time (15 mins ago), this time when I tried turning it over, when the the second piston (from the front) got to TDC, a heap of dirty shit came spilling out. So I used the syringe and got as much out as I could. I got about 2 syringes full of the stuff, before I had to start adding more clean oil to get it up high enough to be able to suck out the dirty stuff. I probably did this another 4 - 5 times and there is still more to go. Heres some pics to show what was in there.

This is the first lot I pulled out.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/176094.jpg

And to compare with clean oil so you know its not the camera darkness.

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/176095.jpg


After diluting it and sucking it out for a while I can now turn the engine over, however, I want to know what this shit is, why its in there/how it got there, and what it tells me about the condition of the engine, seeing as I payed almost $800 for it on the basis that it was a low km(60,000ks) clean engine, when I could have got a 150~k engine for half the price.

Not happy jan.

[Simon-AE86]

its really hard to believe any importer that sells a 20 year old engine on the basis that its only done 60,000 kms, really you should take it back and ask for a refund or another motor.

From what you have said, it sounds very much like the motor has gummed up. there are other, worst case senarios also.

[Rollabender]

Could also be from being stored or transported in an other than upright position i think.

[Simon-AE86]

drain the oil from the sump, get several litres of diesel and put that through the motor with the sump plug on, pour it into the bores with the spark plugs out also, let it soak for a bit, then turn the motor over, try and free it up a bit and when/if it does keep turning it over for a while, then drain the sump again and use compressed air and a air gun to blow all the bores free and dry. Diesel is oil based so no need to worry about that.

then put clean oil in it, new plugs and see how it goes then if it all free's up `

[slide86]

so did you remove the plugs, fill the cylinders with a syringe full of oil then refit the plugs?

if you did that then you would have been hydraulically locking the engine, hense the reason it wouldn't turn over....you can't have that much fluid in the cylinder and expect the engine to turn over.

a full syringe is WAY to much. you should have used a quarter of that

[PULSE]

No mate, read what I wrote again.

I put a quarter of a syringe into each bore. Then each time I tried turning it over I had the plugs out. I then put another quarter into each bore as someone said I might not have put enough in. This means there is half a syringe of oil in each bore. However when I had the number 2 piston at TDC, I was able to remove 2 full syringes worth of liquid. Then after adding more oil with the syringe to dilute it and bring the oil up high enough to suck it out with the syringe, I was able to get another 5 syringes worth of the dirty shit in there mixed with oil, tho still very dark brown. So there was definitely at least 2 - 4 syringes worth of brown liquid in there before I even touched it. And I first pulled the plugs a few days ago and since then every time I've tried to turn it over plugs have been out.

Also I might add, the brown liquid I removed at first when I had only put half a syringe of oil in there, didnt seem very oily, it had a consistency closer to water

[Simon-AE86]

do what i said

[PULSE]

Hey mate, so do I fill the actual engine with diesel (ie where oil would normally go) and also put some into the bores (how much)?

I've just been on the phone to AJPS and I've got a fair understanding of how to go about it now. I was told to add a little bit of diesel to the bores and let it sit, turn it over a bit then flip the engine over to let it all drain out.

I'd also like to add that dave from AJPS has handled it well, he saw the thread and contacted me, let me speak to his mechanic who advised me to do the above, and said that he will give me a refund if it is stuffed. There have been a few problems with buying this engine but each time he's done his best to rectify the problem.

Cheers, Matt

[slide86]

you were on the phone talking to me

[Simon-AE86]

lol ^^^

Yeah for a good clean out to get all the sludge out, fill the motor with diesel, where you would put the oil, along with the bores, then drain it all out and blow it out, or flip it over then let it drain.

[PULSE]

slide86 - are you the guy who contacted me in the first place (who I thought was dave), or the guy who was apparently the "mechanic" lol

Simon-AE86 - how much diesel should I put into each bore? And should I turn it over while its in there at all to get it moving?

[slide86]

edited.....i can't be bothered.


i have been a mechanic for 7 years.....i was just trying to help you out in my own time at no cost. i don't appreciate being laughed at.

just put diesel in it like simon and i have both said, otherwise take the engine back and get one from u pull it cause that engine will be in heaps good condition

[RobertoX]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PULSE @ Sep 2 2008, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=582661)</div>
slide86 - are you the guy who contacted me in the first place (who I thought was dave), or the guy who was apparently the "mechanic" lol

Simon-AE86 - how much diesel should I put into each bore? And should I turn it over while its in there at all to get it moving?[/b]

i called you, and i put huw on the phone who has a better understanding of engines than me

he was trying to help

he is a mechanic

[PULSE]

Sorry I think my post has come across wrong. I wasn't being rude or laughing at you, it just looked funny when you wrote "you were on the phone talking to me", sorry for the misunderstanding.