p plate engine conversion?

[brassallslide86]

hey im on my red p,s wondering if it would be legal for me to drive an 84 ae86 with a conversion from 4ac to 4agze posibly 20v

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

1 - What state do you live in?
2 - Ring your local roads authority and ask. Or look on their website.
3 - Most likely no.

Hen

[Jonny Rochester]

In Tassie, no restrictions as far as I know.

[ae86]

red p's wont be able to drive GZE, 20v depends on how clean the install is to lookfactory, if you get an engineer cert/modplate your not supposed to be driving it, jdm ae86 is legal for 4age/20v

[marvis]

Just do it.

marvis.

[Clinton]

defs will get done for gze.

for P platers in NSW and QLD it is illegal to have an engine conversion unless it was a factory option (ie JDM AE86 came out with a 16v, ADM AE86 is still an 86. so it was a factory option). ae71s are a different story again...

[dr1ft-pig]

20v in a 86 is fine in nsw, i never had any troubles

as long as u dont exceed stock engine capacity (keep it some kind of n/a 4age /fe) you will be fine

[Clinton]

20v in an 86 is fine, but not P plate legal. still can get away with it. but it only takes 1 cop to hve half a brain.

it really does need to be engineered...

[Golberg]

I have found that in NSW its a really grey area at least. I have spoken to the RTA and some say I cant be done for having a 16v in my AE71 as its still just a 1.6L. Other people at the RTA have told me that the car will not be legal for me to drive. The rules surrounding this are not even close to be being clearly defined, as such though my corolla isn't engineered and wont be. But the engine number will be put onto the rego so that its legit, and anybody looking at my engine bay wouldn't realise that the engine isn't standard anyway unless they look at the plate which says 4A-C.

[ae86]

defs will get done for gze.

for P platers in NSW and QLD it is illegal to have an engine conversion unless it was a factory option (ie JDM AE86 came out with a 16v, ADM AE86 is still an 86. so it was a factory option). ae71s are a different story again...

but has to be a factory option in this country to be exact, i been through this too many times with cops as im under the law

[Vance]

but has to be a factory option in this country to be exact, i been through this too many times with cops as im under the law

it was an option in this country. 41 adm gtv's with standard bigports says so

[af300e]

^^you'd have to prove it if you were defected and thus far there is no proof. Unless some new info has come up?

I can't find an EPC anywhere that lists 4age parts for AU delivered cars.

Johnny has no doubt checked the toyota genuine EPC's for them, i wonder if GE parts show on them?

[Golberg]

Under "ARL" tag for Australia there is nothing mentioning a 4AGE AE86 sold here. That's on the Toyota Genuine EPC.

But I still do believe as riojin said, there were 41 GTV's sold here.

But there is still no hard concrete evidence. Still need some photos of a a build plate and an ADR compliance tag from an ADM GTV before that will ever work.

[brassallslide86]

man fkn p plate laws, all i wanna do is put a 20v na in my adm 86 legally? would changing the engine numbers on the 20v to the engin numbers that are on my 4 ac work?

[rthy]

put the 20v head on the 4ac

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

Brass - What you can slide past Vicroads and what is legal are two totally different things. It sounds like you know and understand the rules. If/how you decide to bend/break them is entirely up to you.

Hen

[ae86]

it was an option in this country. 41 adm gtv's with standard bigports says so


^^you'd have to prove it if you were defected and thus far there is no proof. Unless some new info has come up?

I can't find an EPC anywhere that lists 4age parts for AU delivered cars.

Johnny has no doubt checked the toyota genuine EPC's for them, i wonder if GE parts show on them?

dan, af300e is correct, u need to prove these ADM GTV's were here, people can rant to me about how their friend had one or they seen one on ebay a few months back, true story is, u think they will believe that ? frankly i wont believe it till i see it, think that will apply to them but with information and not printout of ae86dc people talking about them, someone print out info or pictures of a genuine one to settle this once and forall, will save adm boys lots of trouble too

[Tim.duncan]

In sa i sent away for a "request to mod" form, did everything they wanted, this included an enginear report on the motor. Simply went threw regency and had it all signed off. That was for a gze. its all legal and i have the paper work for it. i belive you cant do this on your p's because its supercharged. cant see a problem with a 20v? or na16v? it was 9 months before i had the conversion compleated so by the time your finished you will probely be off your p's

[ae86]

well im fairly sure anti hoon laws are same in each state but i will just say "in vic" cause im not 100%, on your P's ur not alowed to have anysort of engine conversion in your vehicle, u can choose to dodge by not telling if its same capacity and same engine family (4a) but that is at your own risk.

[LittleRedSpirit]

No such thing.

[ae86]

oh yes no such thing, shouldnt worry about p plates or your car getting auctioned off after 3rd impound, i was just joshing everyone about engine conversion i must have been having a nightmare, called reality.

[hachirusto]

Just to clear this up if you are in Victoria and are not under the old power to weight P plate laws which were before july 2007 then you are unable legally to have any sort of engine modification to your car. This means even having a different type of filter IE ram flow on a 4ac infringes on this law, Red plates are in the same boat only they would be worse as they can now be specifically target as they stand out alot more then greens because there are still a heap of people on the pre july 2007 laws.

I got my p in 2008 before the red p plate laws came into effect and I know I cant have any engine modifications legally, though you could most probably pass a 4age as stock to the relevent authorities you can still get done for it.

Also just think of the insurance side of things , if you had a big accident and they found out that you had change your engine you can get into serious shit because of it as they will probably try to not pay for any damaged you do to your car or other cars depending on what happens.

As for the factory option case this is true but untill it is proven properly that toyota did bring in the mythical 41 jdm ae86's and that information is submitted to vic roads / other state road offices then we cant do much.

[dave2221]

Quoted from the RTA NSW
RTA P1 & P2 restrictions (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/gettingalicence/car/p1p2_conditions.html?llid=4)
Prohibited vehicles

The prohibited vehicle condition restricts provisional (P1 and P2) drivers from driving certain high performance vehicles. The condition applies to provisional licences issued on or after 11 July 2005. The scheme aims to prohibit young driver access to vehicles that are overrepresented in young driver crashes.

Prohibited vehicles are those with:

Eight or more cylinders (except diesel).
A turbocharged engine (except diesel).
A supercharged engine (except diesel).
Engine performance modifications that require an engineers' certificate.
Certain high performance six cylinder engine vehicles or other vehicles as described in the publication Novice Drivers - High Performance Vehicle Restrictions.

put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Technically a 16v requires only a blue slip i believe to change the associated engine number.

Using the same block (4a) and no significant increase in power is seen as an "owners certified modification" as long as all the factory emissions gear is retained.

Even better if you can show 41 4age AE86's were delivered.

So technically, if you can modify the engine, suspension (lowered springs) muffler ect, as long as its an owners certified mod in realation to this:

RTA checklist on rego interstate vehicles (it covers owners certified mods) (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/getnewrego/interstatevehicles.html)

Owner-certified modifications

Owner-certified modifications are generally those modifications which were optional equipment to the vehicle concerned. Owner-certified modifications also include some non-standard modifications of a minor nature which do not affect the level of safety, strength, or reliability of vital systems such as brakes and steering. These modifications have little or no impact on the vehicle's level of compliance with the Australian Design Rules. The modified vehicle must be presented to an AUVIS or HVAIS. For more information, see Vehicle Standards.

and linked further to Guidlines for light vehicle modifications (NSW) (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi_06_-_guidelines_for_light_vehicle_modifications_nov_20 07.pdf)

Do I need an engineering signatory for minor modifications?
Vehicle modifications fall into three distinct categories:
‘Owner certified’ minor modifications which can be accepted for registration purposes without formal
certification.
‘Engineering signatory certified’ modified production vehicles.
‘Engineering signatory certified’ individually constructed vehicles.

Owners certified further clarified as:

Owner certified minor modifications are generally those modifications which were optional equipment for the vehicle
concerned. Owner certified modifications also include some non-standard modifications of a minor nature which do
not affect the level of safety, strength or reliability of vital systems such as brakes and steering. These modifications have
little or no impact upon the vehicle’s level of compliance with the Australian Design Rules.
Examples of minor (owner certified) modifications are:
Engine changes where the capacity increase is less than 15% above the maximum size engine available for the
vehicle (providing no major structural modifications are necessary and where noise and/or exhaust emission
ADRs apply, all standard equipment such as carburettors, exhaust systems, exhaust gas recirculating valves,
oxygen sensors and catalytic convertors relating to noise and emission control are retained and operate
correctly).
The fitting of a proprietary sunroof (if the modifications are of a minor nature only).
Fitting a ‘package’ available as optional equipment for the vehicle (eg front disc brakes, power steering, alternative
transmission and bucket or bench seats).
Additional lighting eg fog & driving lights.
Alternative wheels and tyres within the owner certified limits set by the Authority (see Vehicle Standards
Information Sheet No. 9 Guidelines for alternative wheels & tyres).
Fitting of handling enhancing suspension components such as roll stabiliser bars and up-rated shock absorbers.
Major modifications which fall outside the category of minor (owner certified) modifications require submission of
certification by an RTA recognised

Does the RTA require notification of the modifications?
All major modifications must be reported to the RTA. Minor modifications made to the motor vehicle or its
equipment which affect registration details must be reported to the RTA to ensure that accurate records are
maintained. These details include engine number, engine capacity/motive power/number of cylinders, body shape,
fittings, number of seating positions, unladen (tare) weight, gross vehicle mass, axle code, wheelbase & overall axle
space. If the unladen weight has changed, the owner must provide a weighbridge ticket for the vehicle in its new
configuration.
Modifications are reported to the RTA by obtaining an Adjustment of Records and a ‘blue slip’ from an
Authorised Unregistered Vehicle Inspection Station (AUVIS). For details of your nearest AUVIS contact the RTA’s
Customer Service Centre on 13 22 13.
The Adjustment of Records, blue slip and any engineering certificate are then presented at a Motor Registry. The
owners copy of the engineering certificate is stamped and endorsed by the RTA and must be kept in the vehicle.
This certificate must be presented to an authorised officer of the RTA or the police when requested.

To what extent can I modify my vehicle?
Engine modification
1. Original engine modified
Modifications to the original engine are permitted provided the following conditions are met:
�� Normal engine reconditioning within manufacturer’s limits is permitted;
�� Modifications must not affect compliance with any emission or noise related ADRs;
�� All emission control equipment must be retained and functional;
�� If the modifications result in a substantial increase in power, then the adequacy of other components to
carry the increased power (brake performance, vehicle controllability, suspension systems,

Please note that under no circumstances does it say that the engine your swapping to had to be available within Australia, just that it doesnt change the maximum AVAILABLE size for the car..... and since its the same size, your in like Flynn
Engine changes where the capacity increase is less than 15% above the maximum size engine available for the
vehicle

[dave2221]

i would advise that the RTA pamphlet is an abbreviation of the legislation for the state.

RTA vechile standards information (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi_dl1.html)

if someone can point out legislation to contradict what i have referenced from the RTA i would say that, from a defect standpoint, your sweet as long as your follow the guidelines from the RTA, seeming as they are the authourity when it come to the road rules.... cops are just there to carry out the rules that the RTA write down

[Golberg]

Very good post Dave, that is all the crap I trawled through also.

[dave2221]

thanks.... i tried to search the legislation but nothing came up..... doesnt mean its not there, just that its hard to find.... cause it depends on the terminology they use in the legislation..

interesting note, cars less than 3.5tn and exhausts lower to ground than 150mm pre July 1983 cars have a exhaust sound reading of 92db, while cars made after that are 89db, and it makes no mention of engine date, it goes by car build date

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

Nice research Dave.

Just note that it is NSW specific. In Vic there is a clause about engine swaps don't need an engineers if the motor came out in the same chassis IN AUSTRALIA. Sorry not to be able to give a link for people, but it was in the Vicroads documentation last time I checked.

Hen

[wntdae86]

i would say you can drive a 4age in vic on red p as it did state that no mods eg superchager or turbo !!! so till i get my ae71 happen well i will just stay with that !!!!! + get a 4age n drop it in after reg n rwc are done

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

^^ Love your logic. That'll destroy everything in court.

[af300e]

i would say you can drive a 4age in vic on red p as it did state that no mods eg superchager or turbo !!! so till i get my ae71 happen well i will just stay with that !!!!! + get a 4age n drop it in after reg n rwc are done

PS. I shagged your mum........your worship.

[rthy]

http://www.arrivealive.vic.gov.au/initiatives/safer_road_users/new_graduated_licensi/high_powered_vehicle_restrictions_that_apply_if_yo .html

theres like so many awesome stock cars you can get today
NA S13's come into mind
Civic SI (not vtec but similar to the smallport)

[shakes]

Nice research Dave.

Just note that it is NSW specific. In Vic there is a clause about engine swaps don't need an engineers if the motor came out in the same chassis IN AUSTRALIA. Sorry not to be able to give a link for people, but it was in the Vicroads documentation last time I checked.

Hen

there is also something in there somewhere (can't be bothered trawling for it) in victoria you still need an engineer's cert IF the power upgrade is greater than 15% of factory for your car.

[pogi]

^^ Love your logic. That'll destroy everything in court.


PS. I shagged your mum........your worship.

lmao i love the atmosphere in this thread, as for this, i believe in vic its not alowed if ur doing it obviously your avoiding the legislations for a reason and you know why

[Dan_J]

y why does it matter, drive what u want, save money for fines on da side if they occur :P

[Victim]

Dave hit the nail on the head.

As far as I'm aware (from a NSW perspective, and what i'm relying on from both reliable expert mechanic's opinions and the RTS legislation itself) a 4AGE 16V on red P plates is legal, because it does not go over the 15% increase in capacity as it's simply swapping a 1.6L for another 1.6L (in my case of a 4AC AE71).

My understanding of the restrictions are thus:
* No superchargers (rules out GZE obviously)
* No turbos
* No engine modifications that require engineering / blue slips.

Looking further into exactly what constitutes an engine modification that needs engineering / blue slip, you encounter the "if it's under 15% capacity it's sweet" clause.

The RTA site has all the info you need.

The golden rule: If not, keep it stock (looking).

[Golberg]

Old thread, lock.

We only just closed the other.