T3 Camber Tops, Any Good? Suggest Other Brand?

[PRIMRK]

Looking at getting some camber tops to do my S13 front end conversion, have found the T3 one are a good price for new items, any one got these yet and are they any good??

Can anyone else suggest any other good ones? or if your selling some second handers that are in good nick yell out!

Cheers

[sundee]

ive sold a heap of them and had no issues reported in since i started selling them 2 years ago.

not just saying that to flog them off, i dont do selling rubbish that fails.

just some insight for you.

[jakel]

Ive had mine in my car for about 8 months and they are fine, no problems. All the stuff from T3 looks good.

[Celica RA45]

get cusco as my t3 flogged out pretty quick ,was more so the sperical bearing moving up and down in the alloy

[sundee]

how long ago did you buy them? and what was the car used for?

[Sam-Q]

Ive had mine in my car for about 8 months and they are fine, no problems. All the stuff from T3 looks good.

a lot of their stuff has issues and don't even bother trying to any support for their bits

[sundee]

Thats a rubbish comment sam, and a comment that would have been relevant a few years ago, but not now.
like i said in 2 years of being their distributor out here i have not had a part returned for warranty claim, or had to supply parts to fix broken components.

[Jacobxxx]

People just bitch about it on the internet rather than trying to contact the supplier or manufacturer.

[Sam-Q]

quite a few people I talked to have told me otherwise, a guy just the other day was telling me an extensive story on the total distain he was treated with. Maybe I should get him to post here.

[Jacobxxx]

Have you used any of their products Sam?

[Sam-Q]

here's what I think- if someone ask why something doesn't bolt on like it's meant to after buying it and the guy in charge responds by saying that it's a part for a modified car so it's only natural it will need some modifications to fit the engine then he deserves a punch in the face. If something is made to fit then it damn well should, otherwise say what needs to be changed/modded. My cooling kit requires a bit to be ground out the alternator tensioner bracket and it's right there on the same page.

[Sam-Q]

Have you used any of their products Sam?

yes, I am unbiast and I only say what I don't like. I really like some of their gear but if peoples storys are anything to go off then their attitude stinks

[Sam-Q]

as for their camber tops I can't see anything wrong with the design, that is assuming that thee's enough room for the upper hat to swivel there?

[Jacobxxx]

Im fairly sure the last thread we had on their camber tops the only issue was a spacer being needed? Joel was really helpful in that thread too from memory, even though the product had been purchased second hand.

Ill try and find the thread.

[Sam-Q]

see this is the thing, it looks like a decent product and bar the spacer I can't see anything wrong with it. But why would they sell a product that is incomplete? would he mail you a spacer if you asked where it is?

Am I the only one who has a problem with someone selling something that will not work right untill you figure out it needs something? even if it's a $1 part it's their job.

[AJPS]

i used to sell t3 stuff (years ago)

i cant comment on it in recent times - perhaps it is better joel is an honest guy - but we had a few issues (filing down rcas to fit? maybe we got sent the wrong ones?) and the camber tops had a clumsy design and matt mead had issues with his as well...

hence why I started doing 'ajps' parts

as for the camber tops the shank nut style is much better in my opinion hence why i use cuscos in my own cars before I sold cusco...still going strong...

[PRIMRK]

thanks guys i ended up ordering some cusco ones

[Sam-Q]

Dave would you be able to explain more about the shank nut? I have someone's cusco's in my garage and i understand the concept but what's the advantage? the use of a larger diameter bearing?

[ke_70]

moves the shock piston down to give more stroke. i don't really think its a huge advantage as i don't really think many people would top out their shock. mabey rally guys?

[Sam-Q]

wouldn't that be a bad thing as most cars are not running a short enough insert? Either way I can't see it making much of a difference in that regard at all

[timbo]

I thought the advantage would have been the fact that it use more tread on the sock making it safer? I am going down the cusco route from T3 purely because of this. Still saving Dave...

[ke_70]

if you can strip the nut off the shock your doing it wrong!

[sundee]

i dont believe there is actually and advantage or disadvantage in both designs.
i had cusco camber plates in my 1st 86 and 1 of the bearings flogged out.
just goes to show not everything is perfect, and its expected really.

when installing the bearing into the lower gold plate,
The alloy is heated and the bearing is ultracooled - i cant remember the temperatures off top of my head.
once mated together, it gives a superior fitment.

i guess it is hard to earn a good reputation if you started out with a not so good one.

edited, because.

[Sam-Q]

isn't the bearing carrying about 26% of the weight of the whole car when on level ground? otherwise how would it transfer the force from the upper hat to the strut tower?

[ke_70]

sams right the bearing will still take the load.
steering/turning the bearing will not really wear it as much as the vertical forces that will eventually flog it out.

the wear can't be compared as stiffer springs and shocks will wear it much much quicker! not to mention how and where you actually drive

camber tops are a fairly simple component. same tech really.
the only reason you would pick cusco over t3 would be if you want to get you height as high a possible

[LittleRedSpirit]

Have you ever considered some sort of dust cap for them so you dont get crap in there and wear them out prematurely, i think environmental factors play a part. A big part.

[trikzlane]

i am with sam Q, the camber tops are ok bar the fact that i had to buy the lower bearing plate separate, oh and the fact that the swivel bearing flogged out and because its from usa, the bearing size doesnt exist in aus, and for some reason sundee86 says they only sell the gold lower block and bearing as one, which is almost the same price as new cambertops

[sundee]

isn't the bearing carrying about 26% of the weight of the whole car when on level ground? otherwise how would it transfer the force from the upper hat to the strut tower?

yeah sorry, bit of a mind fart, don't really know what i was thinking.


i am with sam Q, the camber tops are ok bar the fact that i had to buy the lower bearing plate separate, oh and the fact that the swivel bearing flogged out and because its from usa, the bearing size doesnt exist in aus, and for some reason sundee86 says they only sell the gold lower block and bearing as one, which is almost the same price as new cambertops

The reason they only supply the gold lower block with bearing is because of the installation method required to get the bearing to fit. as explained above
also FK USA make bearings in metric sizes aswell

[AJPS]

the upper hat system doesnt allow any movement side to side? Pivot wise

will post a pic when im back on my comp

[trikzlane]

yeah sorry, bit of a mind fart, don't really know what i was thinking.



The reason they only supply the gold lower block with bearing is because of the installation method required to get the bearing to fit. as explained above
also FK USA make bearings in metric sizes aswell

the bearing is held in by a cur-clip which easily knocks out, and i have taken the bearing to 4 "bearing shop" and they have no match all are to big or to small

[Sam-Q]

the bearing is held in by a cur-clip which easily knocks out, and i have taken the bearing to 4 "bearing shop" and they have no match all are to big or to small

maybe they upgraded their design? I guess the overall diameter of the bearing is important as it will roughly determine how long it will last.

[sundee]

the bearing is held in by a cur-clip which easily knocks out, and i have taken the bearing to 4 "bearing shop" and they have no match all are to big or to small

You also brought your camber plates 2nd hand, so there is no telling if you have the older type or newer type, im guessing by what you have said, you have the older type.

[trikzlane]

yeah probably, ive had it for over two years now, ive got use to the knocking and just ignore it

[timbo]

the upper hat system doesnt allow any movement side to side? Pivot wise

Indeed. I did try to explain this to someone on here ages ago with some pictures of noltec plates... I just spaced mine out with a washer to get the right amount of side-to-side movement.

[sundee]

Please explain timbo

[timbo]

Well my top hats are for TRD 74mm ID springs, say in short they are huge! They fouled up on the bearing and would allow any movement and if not spaced out with a washer then any turning from the spring/top hat setup then a lot of wear would be placed on the bearing.

With other setups I'm sure this wouldn't be a problem and for me another set of camber tops will be cheaper than another set of coilovers.

Also with the T3 upper hat system (which I have spare and is a great bit of hardware, just don't have 65mm springs) I think it would benefit from a washer to allow tilt movement when the strut and camber plate is bolted up as the whole thing needs to pivot from the bearing. In a stock setup the rubber plate also allows for tilt with the bearing but no spacer is required as the whole thing sits a lot lower than an aftermarket camber plate which sits higher.

[trikzlane]

people need to think, there shouldnt be any side to side movement in the bearing. the swivel bearing is there to allow different camber adjustment, it wont move at all when set

[timbo]

the swivel bearing is there to allow different camber adjustment

We all know that, but tilt movement is needed when installing the struts, think about it. If there wasn't the camber plate bolts would never line up on the strut tower. The bearing can spin in any direction btw, just like a rose joint uses the same type of bearing.

[Sam-Q]

people need to think, there shouldnt be any side to side movement in the bearing. the swivel bearing is there to allow different camber adjustment, it wont move at all when set

as the lower control arm and the castor rod move through their arc of axis the angle will constantly change

[timbo]

Yep, so if the top hat sits flush with the lower part of the camber plate there would be no movement, thus using a washer to space this out you create room for this movement. The noltec plates I had briefly had a very long shanked nut that sat halfway through the bearing, from the bottom a non-threaded flange sat in the rest of the bearing which would allow the spring top hat to sit flush on the flange and not the camber plate.

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/3/1/1/3/71650.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/3/1/1/3/71651.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/3/1/1/3/71652.jpg

[Sam-Q]

hey that's really neat, I have only ever looked at their street option.

[sundee]

I had a look at what your talking about last night. I do see what you mean, though it would be hard to see how much the upper hat sits off when actually in the car, and camber dialed in. Say 3deg at the hub would be bugger all up top

[timbo]

Yeah, it's not much at all Joel, just saying its worth using a washer so there isn't any possibility of rubbing. I'm happy with my T3 tops and all the other T3 gear on my car.

[Celica RA45]

they make a good kit but they havnt got all the parts you need as timbo has showed .my suspension guy had to make up some alloy so the bottom plate wouldnt bind up
gab needs to make all of this so its easy
with the cusco tops where the bearing sits in its steel so stronger than alloy i havnt had it pound out yet
im was getting about 12 months out of the t3 1s and have had the cuscos in now for 2 years and no problems
maybe 5 degress of neg camber doesnt help

[sundee]

when someone comes to me for T3 parts i do suggest that they purchase the upper hats aswell, some guys just dont take it up.
but i think im going to make it a must have and sell the camber plates with the upper hats as a kit.

Good to hear Timbo, if you do have any troubles though let me know.

[Sam-Q]

I find it odd that the bearing would flog out the housing. If it's in there firm enough in the first place then there shouldn't be any movement to allow for it to flog out at all.

[sundee]

that use to be the case i believe with the older design sam,but not now,
Timbo, with that spacer you had made, where does the lower section (widest bit) sit on the camber plate? is it all on the bearing? or does it sit on the blue ring?

[slydar]

from what i have seen of them the spherical bearing is smaller in the t3 set up. i'd say even in a cusco strut top, its a bit on the small side considering the load its under, they dont last forever. also the design of the T3 tops doesnt usually leave you with a lot of protruding thread to do up your top nut on your insert.

i think T3 has its place in the market, its easily accessible and well priced, but there is better stuff out there, and its not always expensive. some of their stuff is good though, especially considering the price.

[timbo]

with that spacer you had made, where does the lower section (widest bit) sit on the camber plate? is it all on the bearing? or does it sit on the blue ring?

Didn't have it made, that is how noltec tops came! It fits inside the bearing, halfway up, with a lip that sits flush on the bottom of the bearing with the flange supporting the top hat.

The bearing takes some the load but I think with the shanked nut sitting hard up against the lower flange part in the bearing, when tightened up on the damper thread the load would be shared?

[sundee]

i was just thinking if that spacer does NOT rest on the blue circular section on the cusco camber plate, then the bearing would be taking the instant " not really absorbed" shock of the upward force of the spring. would put unwanted loads on the bearing.

[Sam-Q]

i was just thinking if that spacer does NOT rest on the blue circular section on the cusco camber plate, then the bearing would be taking the instant " not really absorbed" shock of the upward force of the spring. would put unwanted loads on the bearing.

but that's why the bearing is there, it has to act as a pivot and let everything hinge off that joint.

[ke_70]

bearing should take all load. if its not then they're installed wrong

[timbo]

It has to take the load as others have said. The force will be grater on the bearing in any camber top compared to the stock rubber mount where the rubber acts as a shock absorbent. Like rose jointed suspension, camber plates are harsher and probably wear quickly is comparison to stock units but people replace them to reap the benefits of great precision and feel at the cost of long levity, and the hip pocket.

Worth to note that race spec AE86's never used adjustable camber plates, rather they used fixed position ones and adjusted camber/castor via LCA and castor rods. Confirmed by ex AE86 mechanic.

[sundee]

i tend to disagree with " the bearing needs to take all the force, i don't think it "needs to at all"
once the camber is set the bearing does not have to pivot any more, correct?

with a most camber settings being between 2 deg upto around 5 deg at the extreme

these measurements are obviously made at the wheels centreline, so depending on the ride height the angular change at the strut top will be all of sweet FA.

if you had a spring hat which could locate in the right direction to allow say a 1 degree chamfer on the upper hat ( in t3's case) i feel you would have the perfect setup, allowing full contact of the upper hat on the camber plate at a give range of camber settings and allowing the spring force to be central on the camber plate itself and the shock load with is dampened to be placed on the bearing

[takai]

The big difference between the T3 cambertops and the Cusco/Noltec design is that the T3 ones are designed to work with the T3 roller bearing upper hats, like so:
http://gallery2.plebeians.net/d/3900-2/IMG_0025.jpg

The upper race of the roller bearing sits directly on the gold plate and transfers the entire shock load into the camber top plate rather than into the bearing itself, and the roller bearing has enough deflection to account for camber change through suspension travel.

It does work well, ive used it on several cars with good results.

As for the bearings wearing out, ive used 3 sets of Cuscos, all of which have flogged out the spherical bearing on the track in a year or so of track work. The T3s were fine for the 2 seasons i ran them. Ive only swapped back to the Cuscos because one hat was stolen from my garage...

For the rest of the T3 gear, ive used quite a bit of it in my time, and all of the stuff ive used over the years (since 2003) has fit perfectly, and both Gabe and Gia have been great to deal with.

[ke_70]

if they're designed to work like that why do they even have a bearing?
why not build the upper race into the gold part delete the bearing and sell as one peice?

[Celica RA45]

even that pic of your strut with the top hat, chris is wrong it can still bind up and flog out. i will try to get a good pic of mine to show how it should be

[takai]

if they're designed to work like that why do they even have a bearing?
why not build the upper race into the gold part delete the bearing and sell as one peice?

Because you need the deflection to compensate for the dynamic camber change.

[slydar]

as you have said. maybe set up like that it works well in practical terms. but technically i think that is installed incorrectly.

like you said, there is dynamic camber change. whilst that upper hat bearing might function on less than ideal angles, it should be sandwiched between 2 parallel surfaces.

i always thought the purpose of the upper hat system was to reduce the "work" the spherical bearing does during steering and reduce the chance of spring "wind up".

edit - set up like that the spring hat is putting a bending force on the upper part of the insert. which is usually hollow on adjustable inserts.