4AGE cams......choices, dyno results and discussions!!!

[AE86DORI]

Hey,

Just wanted to know what sort of different head work needs to be done for running a set of 264 cams and a set of 272 cams.

Thanks

[adam]

I'm assuming into a 4AGE 16v. It should bolt straight in. You may need to convert to under bucket shims if lift is greater than about 8-8.5mm. Above 10mm and you'll start hitting the head/block studs.

[ke70dave]

I'm assuming into a 4AGE 16v. It should bolt straight in. You may need to convert to under bucket shims if lift is greater than about 8-8.5mm. Above 10mm and you'll start hitting the head/block studs.

wont bolt straight in as such. you will need to get your valves setup for the cams (changing the shims for the appropriate shims). same deal as adjusting the tappets on older engines.

[AE86DORI]

yeah sorry its for a 4age 1.6l.

so no upgrading valve springs and valves also?

[slide86]

get upgraded springs for sure

[jaz_ae86]

Have run standard shim and spring setup on 263 8.35mm lift cams for over 5+ years. Never an issue. I do have a box of Toda vavle springs but never got around to putting them in.

When putting cams in, a de-dagging of the head is a good start if not porting the head. Cam gears also great idea to dial them in.

A re-shim is MANDATORY, but is piss easy if you've got a spare head (or just spare shims). Just follow the factory book on how to do.

The true technical answer is that the ramp rate of the cam is critical in determining if the cam will spit a shim. Lift will cause spring binding, float and fatigue. The lay-mans answer is that if you buy from reputable brand, under 8.5mm lift, you won't have any major issues.

[slydar]

above post explains it all really.

the wade in my last motor were 277 (advertised) with 8.66mm lift.

i simply asked for the biggest cams the stock lifters/springs could handle.

so... "normal" (lift) 272/264 will be fine with stock parts. if its a high k engine you might want new springs. just stock or hks which are also cheap. theres also a local supplier (qld based) thats meant to be good and cheap. if you google youll find them.

1 tip. set the last with the engine out if you can. on a slammed ae86s, its a fuct job bending over measuring etc...

[AE86DORI]

jaz ae86- your doing well, 5 years is amazing seeming everyone reckons you need slight mods.

jaz what do you reckon if you were to go for 272 with 8.3ish lift? Reputable brand also.

[jaz_ae86]

With 272 you HAVE to have adj cam gear. I tried running 272 (like 6yrs ago) on rest stock motor and it was not enjoyable. I took them out 24hrs later as the cam timing was woeful on stock cam wheels and would not idle/rev well. 6-8000 was awesome but not streetable as I was done on OVERALL power despite a higher peak power. You can run 272 like many have but you really want a tidy motor. Compression should be around 10.5 as you will have lower dynamic compression with bigger cams. So smallport or thin head gasket on bigport.

264 are a good street cam. I run mine around 110/110 as per TODA recommendation lobe centre NA and found the pick up and power was good.

8.35mm lift is what TODA/HKS make cams in. They know their shit, and don't pluck number for fun. They know what works!

[Wiggles]

What's the limit of the standard ECU when it comes to cam duration/lift?
Does the AFM version of the 4AG (say, from an AW11) any better or worse for non-standard cams?

[jaz_ae86]

AFM is better as you still have flow of air at idle - not that I would choose AFM. 100kw ECU is my pick.
With big cams there is no vacuum for the MAP sensor to pick up at idle.

Plenty of people have run 272's on stock ECU. Billzilla has a audio file of I think 288's, and indeed sounds like a rotor and sounds much like my car when I had 272's on stock cam wheels.

Tho depending on how you set the lobe centres, you could run 288's on standard ECU but really you should have gone aftermarket ECU/emanage with cams that big.

AS for lift: GENERALLY SPEAKING: always think of aftermarket cams like this: under 288, 8.35mm lift is fine. over 288, you gain from more lift. A pair of 264 w/ 10mm lift (meaning you have converted to underbucket shims) is a waste of money - unless its turbo :sunnies:

[Frak]

I recently dynoed a 16V small port with ae111 quads, HKS 264's, 4-2-1's on std MAP ecu, after dialling in cams the thing ran sweet as and very responsive, 90kw at the wheels.

We do quite a lot of flow benching on heads, remember there is no point going any higher in lift if the head cannot flow it. If the head chokes at 8mm, no point putting 10mm lift cams in unless you start modding the head.

btw I have all the runs of the 16v as video files as we changed cam timing, so you can hear the difference with different cam timing. After it was set to optimal, the engine was very sweet ;)

[Wiggles]

Cool, i was looking around the 264 and 8 - 8.5 lift mark, but didn't know if the ECU would even run it (I've got an AFM bigport from an AW11).
So adjustable cam gears are a must-have... Do you sacrifice much bottom end or put the power band heaps further up the rev range on that sort of (264-272) duration?

[aaron]

Cool, i was looking around the 264 and 8 - 8.5 lift mark, but didn't know if the ECU would even run it (I've got an AFM bigport from an AW11).
So adjustable cam gears are a must-have... Do you sacrifice much bottom end or put the power band heaps further up the rev range on that sort of (264-272) duration?

would that setup gain any/much further from an aftermarket ECU?
post up one of the vids if you have time please

[Wiggles]

btw I have all the runs of the 16v as video files as we changed cam timing, so you can hear the difference with different cam timing. After it was set to optimal, the engine was very sweet


post up one of the vids if you have time please

2nded, i'd be interested in these. Some dyno graphs would be awesome too, it's difficult to get a straight answer about what power you can expect and where in the rev range you can expect it.

[Frak]

When I get back to work tomorrow, I'll print off the dyno curves, the torque curve was remarkedly flat, this would be a very nice street engine.

I'll try and upload some vids.

The problem with running a MAP ecu with cams, is that people will tee all throttles together and one line to the MAP sensor(nothing wrong with that) BUT the pulsations acting on the MAP sensor will alter it's voltage, the ecu see's this voltage change and alters fuelling accordingly(this really throws the idle around as the a/f ratio is changing), so you need some form of pulsation dampener between the throttle vacuum lines and the MAP sensor, now of course running hot cams will reduce the amount of manifold vacuum at idle, the ecu will read this as the engine being under load(more than idle) and adj fuel to suit, which means a rich mixture at idle and light load.

It also reduces the operating range of the MAP sensor, the standard MAP sensor(NA engine) will read from 0kpa to 100kpa absolute, approx 0v-5v, if the standard engine uses the majority of this range in standard specification, so by this I mean, as load changes the voltage changes, if you were to have the engine idling at say 40kpa, this will equate to a certain voltage, if now we change the camshafts, at idle the manifold vacuum may now be 60kpa(full load being 100kpa), see how the useful range of the MAP sensor is narrowed even though the operational range of the engine(rpm etc) has remained the same. the cammed up engine sees 60kpa at idle, the ecu thinks 60kpa is light load and adjusts fuel accordingly.

Altering the cam timing(reducing overlap) can go someway to getting back some manifold vacuum and having the engine run sweeter.

Another negative by-product to running hot cams, is the lack of vacuum for the brake booster, you may think this trivial, but it can have some unwanted side affects ;)

We went from having an engine that was NOT happy below about 3500rpm and a very rich crappy idle, to something that was very responsive and very sweet right through the rev range.

When you see the torque curves, you will agree.

Aaron, for sure I think there are some gains to be had by using an aftermarket ecu, the a/f ratio was actually quite good, better than I thought it would be!!

After we dialled in the cams, the a/f at idle was sweet, about stoich, under light load it was stoich and under full load around the 12.8/13.0:1 which is sweet for an NA engine.

I have had the lad check the total timing and see how much he's running, this will also be another area we can pick up.

We tried some different length ram tubes(in free air, this is, no air box), the engine preferred long tubes, I have found short tubes work well when used IN an airbox(hermholtz tuning etc).

[slide86]

oh man, i love reading posts from people that actually know what they are talking bout....

a refreshing change sometimes. good work mate!

[Sam-Q]

Frak don't ever leave this forum!

I agree with your points, the resonance issue with the vacuum signal can be helped by having a large mini-plenum to joint all the signals together, or as some people do run all the throttles together and then put the pipe through a small plastic fuel filter. Apparently it evens the pulses out quite nicely and solved a rough idle completely from someone on this forum.

Running a vacuum signal for brakes isn't a big deal as I am like many others with 20V engines only using the vacuum bleed off number 1 cylinder for my booster. Now that I have the right master cylinder size for my brake master I don't have any issues. Although depending on the lobe center angle on the engine in question I would likely have a higher vacuum signal because I am using stock 250 degree @ 0 lift cams.

I was thinking that it might be ideal to have something like the 20V engines have for the idle control in that it has an integral mini plenum built into the top of the intake manifold. If someone took air bleeds off all four cylinders and put them in a pipe of lets say 20mm, then it could in theory be used for both the brakes and a vacuum signal. Do you see any potential issues with this?

[kool mints]

ok guys, did not wanted to start a new thread.

I'm also looking at getting some cams shafts for my JDM AE86 GTV kouki 4AGE 16v blue-top.

So far i've narrowed it down to Tomei Poncam which is 264 degrees ex & in with a 8.1 in lifts!!

Wanted to know if anyone is using these set of cams?? can shed there experience??

Will it be able to ran these set of cams with JDM ecu without going aftermarket ecu?

Do these cams just bolt on? if not what sort of bits do i require?

What sort of gains would i be expecting, i want somewhere between bottom and mid-range gain, not to fuss about top end as it street car.

sorry for those million questions, also did quick search, could not find what i wanted.

Thanks guys.

Cheers

[trueno85]

pon cams are actually developed to be able to run on a standard ecu and springs but for ease of mind may as well change the springs. with poncams they have a good midrange and a good street cam

i used to run them on my sr20 and they were great for the street

[DAMO46]

so reading through that, is it better to have a after market computer eg apexi power fc or a stock ecu?

[trueno85]

there's no adjustment on the stock ecu though so it would be better if you had it

[Frak]

Thanks guys.

I have printed off the power, derived torque and a/f ratio's of the following runs;

Standard JDM AE86 bigport
mildly modded JDM bigport(small cams, headers)
ST 20V(exhaust/pod)
BT 20v(velocity stacks)
said 16v small port(cams etc)

I will scan tomorrow and post with a discussion on each, Sam Q I will be interested in your responses as obviously you are a 20v fan :)

All torque curves are "derived" torque. For those that may not of used a chassis dyno before, the torque figure that is given on a dyno printout includes gear ratio multiplication.

Some people will comment that they have seen a power/torque curve and that the torque was some incredibly high figure for that particular engine, what they don't understand, is on a chassis dyno we have to take into consideration the multiplication of torque by,
1. the gear box ratio
2. the diff ratio
3. the ratio of the tyre to the roller

I will try my hardest to dyno manual cars in 4th gear as this is direct 1:1, unfortunately by design, fwd gearboxes will not have this direct straight through so I try to do it in a gear that is as close to 1:1 as possible.

Even if I do dyno in a direct gear, you still have the torque multiplication of the diff ratio and the tyre/roller interface.

Auto's can be a problem, especially autos that bloody want to kick back regardless of what speed you start the run at! and auto's have another torque multiply....the torque converter.

One must always remember that you can multiply torque but you can NOT multiply power by using gearing, for example

If I have 100NM coming out the back of the crank and into a gear ratio of 2.0:1, I now have 200NM coming out the back of the gear box, if I have a diff ratio of 3.0:1, that 200nm now become 600NM, this is why it is much easier to start off in 1st gear than 4th gear. Lets just saw I have 100kw coming out the back of the crank, ignoring frictional losses, this 100kw should stay at 100kw thru the gearbox and 100kw thru the diff ratio.

Now I'm heading somewhere with this, hang in!

Now often people comment on the huge amount of torque they have after being on a chassis dyno and call bullshit, so we have a function called derived torque, basically after a run we have the full logged power data, but we also need an rpm input(which I try to log every run, infact I will try and log as much data as possible, injector duty cycle etc etc), using these two, it works the power/torque equation backwards and basically gives us torque at the wheels IGNORING gearing!!!

So tomorrow when I post up the scans, you can see the derived torque of these engines, I look forward to the comments people make, but lets just say the 16v's torque curves are overall much flatter, the ST is quite flat but the BT is not as smooth but quite a bit more torque everywhere.

I guess we have probably about 40 different 4age powered vehicle runs and I have picked what I consider to be the average for each type of engine.

[Frak]

so reading through that, is it better to have a after market computer eg apexi power fc or a stock ecu?


Damo46, if you can afford it, some form of aftermarket ecu(power fc, e manage, motec, haltec etc) is always going to give you the ability to optimise the a/f ratio and ignition timing/curve to suit your modded engine.

The standard ecu(give or take a little) is, well, optimised for the standard engine.

I have used e-manage and for the price really thought it was good value, easy to use, make sure tho you get the ignition harness so you can alter fuel and ignition.

I also have the FC-logit lap top software for the Power FC and it makes tuning a power FC sooooo much easier than that bloody hand controller >|

of course my fav is Autronic:D

[Sam-Q]

well this will be interesting, please post the exact setup/mods the each engine had at time if possible.

As for my opinion: a fan? maybe, an expert.. no

With the aftermarket ecu's I think it often pays using something locally made. Its gaurenteed to be in english and support is much easier. I like the idea of driving 10 min to the local dealer of my model of ECU to buy parts or drill him with questions.

[Sam-Q]

ok guys, did not wanted to start a new thread.

I'm also looking at getting some cams shafts for my JDM AE86 GTV kouki 4AGE 16v blue-top.

So far i've narrowed it down to Tomei Poncam which is 264 degrees ex & in with a 8.1 in lifts!!

Wanted to know if anyone is using these set of cams?? can shed there experience??

Will it be able to ran these set of cams with JDM ecu without going aftermarket ecu?

Do these cams just bolt on? if not what sort of bits do i require?

What sort of gains would i be expecting, i want somewhere between bottom and mid-range gain, not to fuss about top end as it street car.

sorry for those million questions, also did quick search, could not find what i wanted.

Thanks guys.

Cheers

where do you want your power to be?

are you prepared to lose low down power?

have you considered a local grind?

and welcome to the forums

[slide86]

frak, if anyone ever asks you to dyno a jzx100 auto, just make sure you strap the bugger down damn tight....

they LOVE to kick back.....sometimes it annoys the crap outta me. we had to dyno my car in second and couldnt get WOT because it wanted to kick back to first. thats why my dyno sheet shows 600NM of torque. i think thats a bit ambitious!!

I also agree that collecting the most data possible when doing runs is important. i laugh when i see no ambient temp correction, manifold pressure/vacumn. i mean, how is it supposed to be accurate when the machine doesnt even know what its supposed to be reading???

emanage is real good bang for buck and is highly regarded amongst us jzx100 boys. its either that or a plugin power FC, but the power FC messes with the auto shift point to much :(

im really looking foarward to these results, it would be good to see the difference between a 4a with forced induction and some cams/gears....as this is the setup i am using on my engine. HKS 264 8.3 cams and HKS cam gears....i want to get the most out of the boost.

[Frak]

Slide86, I have done a jzx100 manual and from memory didn't have any problems with wheel spin, I will adjust the ramp rate to suit the power level tho.

If a vehicle has a very powerful engine or an engine which accelerates very fast, you should adjust the ramp rate to suit, for example,

What is ramp rate, this is how fast the dyno allows the car to accelerate on the rollers, a slow ramp rate would be 5km/h/sec, which means that every second the vehicle would increase it's speed by 5km/h, a fast ramp rate is say 18km/h/sec. Get a picture of the difference.

Lets just say we have a powerful engine that comes on boost very quickly making lots of power/torque, we would need a faster ramp rate, if I tried to use a slow ramp rate with a fast accelerating engine, the wheels would out run the speed at which the dyno is unloading the rollers and we would end up with wheel spin and end up with a lower reading.

At the other end of the spectrum, imagine an engine with very little power/torque, if I had a very fast ramp rate, the wheels would never load the rollers until maybe near the end of the run, so we would end up with a power/torque curve less than it actually had.

Sometimes tho it is necessary to change the ramp rate to one which maybe slower, if we were to really load the engine and test if ignition timing etc was correct, a slow ramp rate would replicate going up a long steep hill, of course longer ramp rates mean the run takes longer, which may put extra stresses on gearboxes/diffs/cooling systems.

Our Dyno(Mainline) also has an inbuilt weather station which is constantly updating baro pressure/temp/humidity, this automatic/constant updating also removes an area to be able to 'cheat'.

When dynoing a sportsbike, say a GSXR1000, a fast ramp rate is necessary due to how hard the engines come on power, if the ramp rate is too slow, the reading will be down and usually you end up with one shredded tyre aswell.

With regards to the 4age power/torque curves, it wasn't until I was driving home that I thought I should of printed out a GZE one so the comparison of torque could be made.

Sam, I will try and put as much info as I possibly can with regards to engine specs.

[slide86]

the reason that i was saying strap it down is cause the first auto we put on, wasnt tight enough and kicked back to 1st......was a bit of a moment for the owner and the operator....

i guess thats why alot of clutches and auto boxes get fried, due to incorrect ramp rates causing excessive stress on the driveline???

so many cars come into work with stinking clutches after just having LS1 edit done..."it never did that before it was on the dyno" is the most common thing customers say. lol

[Frak]

the reason that i was saying strap it down is cause the first auto we put on, wasnt tight enough and kicked back to 1st......was a bit of a moment for the owner and the operator....

i guess thats why alot of clutches and auto boxes get fried, due to incorrect ramp rates causing excessive stress on the driveline???

so many cars come into work with stinking clutches after just having LS1 edit done..."it never did that before it was on the dyno" is the most common thing customers say. lol


for sure, manuals make it so much easier, unless you have an auto that will lock into a particular gear, with some of the LS1 software you can lock the auto into what ever gear, makes it so much easier.

[kool mints]

where do you want your power to be?

are you prepared to lose low down power?

have you considered a local grind?

and welcome to the forums

I'm more after response power band between 3000-6500rpm.

Also, not to keen on lumpy idle, and would like the cams to drop in with hassle free.

I rather not lose any power down low but it going to be hard to have both worlds. LOL

Not to sure on what local grinds are offering? I had a look at camtech range so far.

Cheers for the welcome..

[Wally]

Any used Microtech LT10s?

Got one waiting to go in?

264 cams/quads/gze injectors

[jaz_ae86]

Frak - maybe best to start a new thread about dyno graph's - we have moved on from talking about cams plus I will add my graph which should be good indication of boosted 4A. Call the thread - "Frak talking the thruth - do not add useless shit to this thread"

There is alot of good cam info at club 4ag:
http://www.club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_pages/4A-GE%20camshaft_story.htm

Read, re-read and all the answers are there.

Any basic after market computer will run small cams as there isn't a great deal of difficulty. Once the duration is increased you start having more issues with idle and fuelling (due to overlap and MAP issues as Frak said) and a better computer is necessary. Adding quad to cams is aftermarket computer necessary.

You will get MORE power with aftermarket computer over a stock computer but if all you have is 264's, thin head gasket, stick with stock computer. I ran this for years and never an issue. Little lean on JDM AE86 computer but never any problems.

An indication:
4AG bigport, 0.5mm TRD head gasket, head de-dagged and cleaned up, slightly shaved to clean it up. 263 8.35mm inlet cam, 240 ex. 77rwkw on dyno dynamic. JDM AE86 early ECU, 4-2-1 extractors. No noticable loss down low. Once I went to a 264 8.35 exh, still no noticable loss down (like any atmo 4A has bottom end) but would pull super clean to redline. Would have benefited from going to 100kw ECU as it would have been nice to rev it out to 8K, always use to run it just before the limiter when out on the track. Another 600 rpm would have nice.

[Frak]

Hi guys, finally scanned the pics.

I have taken off the top of the dyno sheets as I don't want the owners details etc to be posted up.

BUT let me assure you, these are all legit, done by the same operator(me ;) ) and using the same correction factor etc etc etc The dyno used is a Mainline.
I really don't want to hear comments about dyno accuracy, if these are all done on the same dyno by the same operator then we can all say the testing etc was the same:soldier:

There has been a reason I typed all the other stuff previously about the operation of the dyno, so that when less experienced forum members saw the figures, it would make sense to them.

This is also the reason I have printed out DERIVED torque curves, so it sort of makes more sense to guys not use to seeing dyno runs, that and I don't have to put up with fuckwits making comments that a 16v bigport had 250NM of torque.

Please note that ALL the runs have been mapped over RPM(bottom axis) so ignore the road speed and just look at the rpm.

Also sorry for random hair on some scans(was on my scanner) no smart comments it's obvious it's from my head:yeah:



This is a bigport with what I call typical low cost mods;
Pod filter
4-1's and larger exhaust(2 1/4)
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/9/16256.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/kpowerc.jpg/)
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/9/16257.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/ktorquec.jpg/)
This is very typical of a near std 16v bigport, on our dyno they usually get between 60-66kw depending on engine condition, typical a/f ratio, this one gets a little rich above 5900rpm, torque curve is fairly flat, this would be nice to drive on the road.


The second set of runs were a car which was powered by a bigport, 264deg inlet and exhaust cams, 4-1's, JDM cat back, lightweight flywheel
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/9/16258.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/apowerc.jpg/)
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/9/16259.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/atorquec.jpg/)
a/f ratio on this is quite good, a little lean between 4800-5800rpm, with a corresponding dip in torque at that point, richening it up could smooth that a little, this produced good power considering mods, torque is quite soft below4400rpm, maybe some fettling of the cams could of helped, typical of 16v's it's all over before the rev limiter.


This set of runs is a ST running stock ecu/afm, pod filter, genie headers but 2 1/4 exhaust
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/9/16260.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/dpowerc.jpg/)
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/9/16261.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/dtorquec.jpg/)
The a/f ratio on this 20v ST was a little on the rich side, power output was as expected and the torque curve is very nice, this has quite a wide torque band and if you compare to the 16v's much nicer, typical of ST's it shuts down well before the rev limiter.


This set are from a standard low km BT, which had the ignition timing optimised, royal purple oil, redline transaxle oil etc.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/9/16262.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/jpowerc.jpg/)
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/9/16263.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/jtorquec.jpg/)
As you can see the BT definately delivers the goods, the a/f ratio is quite good BUT the torque curve is not the nicest, even tho the torque is much more than the 16v's it has a substantial dip at 4800rpm, what is funny is that even with this dip the torque is still more than some modded 16v peak torque figures, anyway, the down side to this dip is this car feels wanting below 5000rpm, this is the magically rpm figure you are all ways waiting for/looking for! What is nice about the BT is the way it keeps producing good power to rev limiter, above 5000rpm the BT is a great engine, standard THE best 4age.

This set of runs are from a 16v small port, 100kw MAP ecu, AE111 quads and velocity stacks, 4-2-1 headers, 2 inch exhaust, 264 HKS inlet/exhaust cams and optimised cam timing via vernier sprockets, TRD thin head gasket, light weight flywheel
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/9/16264.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/aspowerc.jpg/)
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/9/16265.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/astorquec.jpg/)
This engine put out the goods, I was not expecting this output with these mods, it did take about 2 hours of messing with cam timing to get an engine which was razor sharp(everywhere, off idle, low rpm, mid and high rpm) and revved cleanly, a/f ratio on stock ecu is suprisingly good, I even checked throughout the rpm range at different engine loads and it was good. What a fantastic torque curve, this is the sort of torque curve you boys that do hills runs want, no nasty suprises, just nice torque everywhere, you can see that even with cams etc etc typical of 16v it shuts down before rpm limit(obviously bigger cams/head work would alleviate this) But overall this is the sort of 16v engine that would do as a nice daily and still have some fun in the hills and do a few sprints at the track.



Just for comparison I thought I'd throw in what everyone on the internet reckons is the best NA 1.6ltr engine made, the Honda B16 vtec, this one was fitted with pod filter and cat back JDM exhaust.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/9/16266.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/b16power0002c.jpg/)
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/9/16267.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/b16torquec.jpg/)
This suprised me in that I was expecting alot more from this so called legendary engine, don't get me wrong, it sounded balistic and 86kw is nothing to sneeze at, but I just thought it would deliver more, when you overlay the BT torque curve the BT kills it EVERYWHERE. But having said that, it's still an excellent output from what is basically a standard 1.6 ltr NA engine.

[Frak]

Constructive comments only please or this will be the first and last time I do this.
Thanks.

When I get back to work on Monday, I'll print off some GZE curves, so we can compare them to NA.

[Sam-Q]

Frak your my new hero. Amazing torque curve on the blacktop, was that with VVT? Do you have a curve of a 20V with an aftermarket ecu that has a nice tune?

I was quite suprised by how linear the power curve was on the B16, I would of thought it would be been much more peaky considering the nature of the VTEC system.

Do you by any chance have these graphs in a higher resolution?

[Frak]

The BT is completely standard except for altering the ignition timing, good oil, new filters etc, that's with the VVT, which suprised me as a ST doesn't act that way(very minor dip), that BT(belongs to me, it's my daily driver) is now fitted with I.Mec short rams and picked up 6kw at the wheels BUT it makes the dip feel like a chasm! BUT above 5000rpm it really get's going as would expect of an NA with just over 100kw at the wheels!

But for sure Sam, I think it shows just how strong a BT is.

I do have a run of a ST with an aftermarket ecu, short stacks, 4-1's but it's not on this dyno(it's on an engine dyno) so it's a little hard to compare. This ST put out flywheel 127kw@7500rpm and 172NM@6500rpm of torque.

Yes I have them in higher res or if you PM you address I'll just mail you the printouts :)

I was actually a little disappointed with the Honda, don't get me wrong, it's a wicked output for an NA 1.6 BUT I just thought it would deliver more, I really expected into the mid 90kw's.

[Frak]

I was quite suprised by how linear the power curve was on the B16, I would of thought it would be been much more peaky considering the nature of the VTEC system.



Just on Sam's comment, a linear power curve is a dead give away that the engine has a flat torque curve, compare a power/torque curve of an engine with a flat torque curve and one with dips etc(BT) and check the shape of the power curve.

Now some people like an engine that feels peaky, ie, the torque curve is not flat, they feel this adds to the excitement.

An engine with a flat torque curve can feel boring, but when you look at the speedo or look at where you just came from you will be suprised, an engine with a flat torque curve will be easier to drive on the limit, no nasty suprises from dramatically increasing/decreasing torque!

Nowadays manufacturers try very hard to make an engine that delivers a very flat torque curve.

[Wally]

Nice posts Frak! :)

Just wondering, I'll basically have this setup you posted "This set of runs are from a 16v small port, 100kw MAP ecu, AE111 quads and velocity stacks, 4-2-1 headers, 2 inch exhaust, 264 HKS inlet/exhaust cams and optimised cam timing via vernier sprockets, TRD thin head gasket, light weight flywheel"

I will be running the same (HKS 264 8.1 cams, Quads, 4-2-1 headers, adj cam gears, etc) as above with addition of an Aftermarket ECU (Microtech LT10s), GZE injectors and 2.25" exhaust, also I have smallport bottom end and bigport top. I will not have a lightened flywheel yet though.

Reckon I'll see much more increase over the results you posted?

I'd love to get an extra 10rwkw from the difference I will be running to hit 100rwkw, would like to hear some thoughts based on Fraks results / other previous experience.

fingerscrossed lol.

Cheers

[Sam-Q]

very interesting indeed. I tottaly agree with you on the power delivery vs feel. I had the exact same experience myself. It reminds me of a story I was told about a guy at the Wolf ECU HQ, he had a guy with a big turbo on his engine, very peaky and all that was to get a retune. With the new tune it gained a huge amount of mid range power and the guy actually came back and asked for everything to be undone as the car was boring to drive. But your right, its only for a buzz in a straight line, I will pick the flat torque curve every time also.

Oh and I forgot to mention earlier, good job on working out the torque multiplication factors. I tried to explain to a friend how two cars with the same torque figure but one producing it at twice the revs geared to have the same rotating speed would end up with double the torque. I believe he just ended up with a headache but then again I am not the best at explaining things.

Heres one for you:

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/5/2/2213.jpg

now as we both know the figures can't be compared because what I went on would very likely of been a more generous dyno. I wanted to hear any general comments you have and what you make of my huge dip that I have late in my rev range. I was thinking a primary resonace in my intake at about 6000rpm and a secondary resonance in my exhuast at 5000RPM or so.

Here are my mods:

silvertop
ported: my own bodgy job
matchported: head>manifold>throttles
my own extractors: 500mm primaries/250mm secondaries (FAIL!)
my own intake: 120mm trumpets by memory
0.8mm trd gasket
Full tune on a Wolf 3D
2.25" system


AE86DORI: any chance of editing the first post of this thread to have the thread title of "4age cam mods and dyno results" or something along those lines.

I will send you that PM as I would love to see these and do an overlay with the different graphs all together, should be really interesting.

[Sam-Q]

Nice posts Frak! :)

Just wondering, I'll basically have this setup you posted "This set of runs are from a 16v small port, 100kw MAP ecu, AE111 quads and velocity stacks, 4-2-1 headers, 2 inch exhaust, 264 HKS inlet/exhaust cams and optimised cam timing via vernier sprockets, TRD thin head gasket, light weight flywheel"

I will be running the same (HKS 264 8.1 cams, Quads, 4-2-1 headers, adj cam gears, etc) as above with addition of an Aftermarket ECU (Microtech LT10s), GZE injectors and 2.25" exhaust, also I have smallport bottom end and bigport top. I will not have a lightened flywheel yet though.

Reckon I'll see much more increase over the results you posted?

I'd love to get an extra 10rwkw from the difference I will be running to hit 100rwkw, would like to hear some thoughts based on Fraks results / other previous experience.

fingerscrossed lol.

Cheers

as I understand lightened flywheels only gain power on high ramp rates and not on normal power runs. Also you just cant compare dyno runs unless they are on the same dyno with the weather correction in place. You could already have the same as his without knowing it.

[slide86]

*title of thread changed*

awaits GZE dyno results :)

[Slimer86]

Going back to the question of having an inline "surge tank" for the Quads to improve manifold pressure for the ecu, my friends engine has one inline going to the ecu, approx 300ml in size and it still has manifold pulsation issues.
The cam's have not been dialled in to optimum as yet though.
Frak, you got PM.

[Frak]

Going back to the question of having an inline "surge tank" for the Quads to improve manifold pressure for the ecu, my friends engine has one inline going to the ecu, approx 300ml in size and it still has manifold pulsation issues.

If you are using this "surge" tank method, you will need to put some form of restrictor in the line to the MAP sensor, I imagine you are using maybe 6mm vacuum line to the MAP sensor, try a 1-2mm restrictor in this line(ie something with a 1-2mm hole in it) and see how this affects the fuelling. Or get your hands on the dampener that is actually fitted to a BT(between the inlet manifold and MAP sensor).

[Sam-Q]

thanks Slide

so Frak what about using a fuel filter like I mentioned? ever tried it? The restriction idea is interesting but I would be unsure about it. Any ideas on how the blacktop one looks internally?

[Slimer86]

I got a blacktop one, which I might fit and try, but that's on my daily.
I think the main prob is the cam's aren't dialled in for optimum at the moment and the ecu recieving a highly pulsed vacuum signal. Microtech MT8 internal map sensor.
I think its tuned to TPS not a combination of MAP/TPS.
Silver top with 272/264,9.0mm lift.
Dialled to 105/108 as per the toda cam card.

The blacktop one looks like a small canister with as Frak said a small internal dia for the inlet and outlet. The canister inline has no restriction, but will do that in the coming days and let you all know.

[Frak]

AE111 inline damper
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8031/damp1.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/damp1.jpg/)
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/403/damp2.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/damp2.jpg/)
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/1537/damp3.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/damp3.jpg/)

[jaz_ae86]

Here is my dyno result: Also on mainline dyno so results are comparable. Hell, even if you say it's reading 10rwkw over, as if I care!

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/5/8/8/16312.jpg (http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dynoo.jpg)

Engine mods:

AA63 bottom end (ie bigport) MR2 bigport head
Home rebuild inc porting and TRD 0.5mm head gasket so expect about 10:1 or more CR
Tighe 263 8.3mm inlet cam HKS 264 8.35mm exh cam
T3 adj cam wheels (currently 114/108)
RWD inlet w/ TVIS held open with cable tie
Kelway exh manifold
JDM S14 T28 ball bearing turbo, with .86 rear housing and you can see my boost creep issues.
JZX90 ARC intercooler (ie HUGE)
3" mandrel exh w/ 1 resonantor and 1 muffler
Late AE92 ECU w/ 1ggte knock sensor not in factory spot, rest factory AE86/GZE electrical

What do you say except boost is on by 3500rpm where I am already on 70rwkw, then climbs steadily. The torque (derived also) shows how it drives, on boost it will spin up A048's in 2nd, any angle in 3rd and will start to turn the treads as well. Its good fun and on the track I tried to keep it between 4500 and 6500.

I raced this same motor NA and have turbo'd it. When NA, I was always on the limiter, gear, limiter, gear limiter. Now its just gear, here the boost, moving too quick, gear, going way too fast, gear, brakes.

[Sam-Q]

whoa man easy, I wasnt taking a stab at you. I just think that with dynos with their normal variance and different calibration it pays not to make a direct comparasin.

BTW: thats a nice predictable power curve

[jaz_ae86]

Yeah, wasn't taking it personal, just a joke that at my power level 10kw is not really here nor there. As Frak and I have discussed, my result whilst not directly related to the TAFE dyno, it is at least another Mainline and was run on a relativly hot day.

My A/F is all over the shop and as expected for a factory ECU being asked to deliver alot more than it was ever designed for. A/F is about good down low, to overly rich mid range to lean up top. To help I will be going 8mm feed line over the 4AC line used previous an maybe GTR fuel pump. Once I get an emanage programming cable I will be able to see the injector duty cycle.

[Frak]

Jason, can you post up your NA curve?

[jaz_ae86]

Will do, just gotta find it...

[aaron]

loving this thread. top stuff frak

[jaz_ae86]

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/5/8/8/16314.jpg (http://img29.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nadyno.jpg)

The above graph of the same motor as the turbo setup less the folowing details:
Full early AE86 JDM ECU/electrics.
Exh cam was 240deg bigport, had cam wheels probably set 116/114 or so.
Stewart Wilkins racing 4-2-1 extractors, 2 1/4 press bend exh, cat coverter, 2 Noby Booth mufflers (if you can call them that).

Resonable numbers, peaky as per any NA motor. A/F was lean but motor never detonated.

Oh, I run only Premium in my cars.

[Frak]

Oh, I run only Premium in my cars.

Last week I had a good conversation with one of the fuel engineers from BP, discussed high octane fuels etc at length, quite interesting.

[aaron]

jaz ae86: in your turbo setup engine, boost appears to be 12psi from what i can see? What was your reasoning behind this, could you bump it up a bit more?

[jaz_ae86]

I want to lower the boost - am going to be trying S15 0.64 exh housing (which has small wastegate seperator in it) to stop boost creep and come on boost sooner.

The result on a contant 12PSI would be more than 160rwkw, which frankly is WAY to much for a bigport motor to handle. We are talking 192kw at the crank on a motor they say is at it limit around 200hp at the crank. At max power there is about 9PSi showing on the graph

The other thing of note and food for thought for everyone: I am running the 'bigger' exh housing for the S14/S15 ball bearing turbo at .86 (off JDM S14 auto) yet I have overboost issues. Excluding that the factory pump pipe on the Nissan is better than my 3" mandrel dump, do we assume my little 1600 flows more air than an SR?
What it does tell me is that I was correct in choosing 264's for my turbo motor.

[slide86]

hmmm very interesting

anything to do with exhaust gas speed leaving the head? maybe 4age has better exhaust port flow than sr20....although the cam would help with this alot i would imagine.

so by running the .64 housing instead you will be sort of limiting the exhaust gas that hits the exhaust wheel at once? i mean with the .86 housing, it allows more gas in the same area due to the larger housing?

im not exactly upto date with housing sizes and outcomes....i know a bit....but yeah....

[Grant #2]

Frak, I converted peak BT KW to HP, then multiplied by 1.17 (17% drive train loss)...which left me with 149hp at the flywheel.

The ST is supposed to have 160, BT 165~170hp. Is there something wrong with my conversion, or is your dyno pessimistic? Toyota's claims optimistic?

[Grant #2]

The curves of your BT vs the ST, is that typical? I'm surprised the ST ran out of breath so quickly. I did not know it was that severe. I'm kinda of glad I paid the extra $350 USD for the blacktop....

Also, the torque dip...is that also typical of a BT? Sorry for the questions, it's rare for me to come across good info like this..

[trueno85]

the dyno results for the modded smallport are really good interesting news! so basically with increased bottomend compression and an aftermarket ecu it will scream.

do you remember what settings were on the cams? although im sure you would not say what they were if it took you that long to set them perfectly!

also with the smallport what was the condition of the motor?

great solid info though!

[kool mints]

I've ordered Kelford 193a Camshafts, which are 266 degrees with 8.75mm in lifts. Will be ranning on 4age 16v blue top along with JDM ECU.

Will post up a graph before and after once its all done. :))

[jaz_ae86]

Good work with cams. Slightly higher lift than the Jap's use, so may want to get some springs when they come up.

Jamie, when are we getting those GZE graph's? Everyone says supercharges have better response. Only a graph will tell. I also hear you may have access to a 20v silvertop turbo motor graph, towards 400hp i believe.

[slydar]

the dyno results for the modded smallport are really good interesting news! so basically with increased bottomend compression and an aftermarket ecu it will scream.

do you remember what settings were on the cams? although im sure you would not say what they were if it took you that long to set them perfectly!

also with the smallport what was the condition of the motor?

great solid info though!

not really. small ports are awesome. theyre just hard to find, especially so in good condition as there hasnt been a tonne of low K ones imported into australia un like every other 4age variant.

[DAMO46]

well guys iam selling one thats been rebuilt, 80rwkw with all standard internals, no upgrades except airfilter and minor head work

[Frak]

Good work with cams. Slightly higher lift than the Jap's use, so may want to get some springs when they come up.

Jamie, when are we getting those GZE graph's? Everyone says supercharges have better response. Only a graph will tell. I also hear you may have access to a 20v silvertop turbo motor graph, towards 400hp i believe.

Jason, I have the GZE scans here, just gotta scan on to computer(will do a bit later) and post up, problem with the 20V turbo is not a proper graph(as you can imagine ;) )

[Frak]

not really. small ports are awesome. theyre just hard to find, especially so in good condition as there hasnt been a tonne of low K ones imported into australia un like every other 4age variant.

If I were to do a 16V I would only use a small port head.

[Frak]

.

do you remember what settings were on the cams? although im sure you would not say what they were if it took you that long to set them perfectly!

also with the smallport what was the condition of the motor?

great solid info though!

Sorry, didn't dial in after, once they were optimised I guess it doesn't matter other than for reference, but we ran out of time. If I had them(I guess I can find out) I would post up, no secrets.

The engine had been rebuilt so was fairly fresh.

[Gavatron]

You need to get John down to tafe in the KE25 and give it a run to compare it to your AE111.

[Frak]

You need to get John down to tafe in the KE25 and give it a run to compare it to your AE111.

That would be intteresting as when his and Craig's were run on 98 on the engine dyno, the BT smashed the ST, especially at the top end, which even going on the graphs posted previous is the same.

[Gavatron]

Yeah he was saying. I just meant stock management against whatever he's running (autronic?)

[Frak]

4AGZE, AE101, Pod filter, 4-2-1 headers, 2 1/2 inch exhaust
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/6876/lpowerc.jpg (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/lpowerc.jpg/)
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/883/ltorquec.jpg (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/ltorquec.jpg/)
As you would imagine, this engine has more torque EVERYWHERE when compared to a NA 4AGE. I have a number of AW11/AE92 GZ curves, but they're not as impressive, but if you want one posted up for comparison just say.

Just for comparison, the best of the NA's, BT 20v, so you can compare.
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/2870/jtorquec.jpg (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/jtorquec.jpg/)

[Trav_555]

Im about to build an NA 4age 16v.

I have a complete jdm 4age sitting here, should i put the smallport head on it? i have one here.

How much better will it be? because im making a bigport adapter for my st ITB's right now... its almost finished.

Gonna have 272 HKS cams and adjustable cam gears, cleaned up and nitrided crank and conrods, aftermarket pistons, trd metal head gasket, 11:1 compression, st ITB's, stock JDM exhaust manifold for a while, 2 1/4" exhaust, and run by a megasquirt ecu with wideband.

Im using a 3 rib block unfortunately, but it should do. But I have a small port head here that I could use instead of the JDM rwd head.

What would be my best option? im going to get a fair amount of head work done.

Cheers.

Travis.

[Classic_King]

Also interested in peoples opinion on the above^^^^

I was under the impression that the big port would make its power at higher revs. So maybe a bit bland down low?

With the small port making power at a considered more useable rev rang?

If so perhaps bigger cams would suit big ports?

[Gavatron]

Get a blacktop 20v.

[Frak]

Remember it's the velocity of the air going thru the port that matters.........not how huge the port is ;)

[Trav_555]

Thats what i was thinking, i can always make the ports larger on the smallport.

Haha nah im sticking 16v thanks :thumbup:

Travis.

[Classic_King]

Hmmm not sure you could grind out a small port to the size of a big port though. Looking at the two.

[sun_moon]

If I were to do a 16V I would only use a small port head.

agreed ! they are so much better !

to all the people who say otherwise, why would toyota switch to an inferior design ?

[Frak]

Haha nah im sticking 16v thanks :thumbup:

Travis.

Once you go BLACK you'll never go back:hehe:.....................I do mean the engine :thumbup:

[Slimer86]

Small ports have a smaller internal area with comparison to the big port head.
Obvious yeah, I know, but as the area of flow increases, the velocity of the fluid in the area (port in this case) decreases, but as a side note, pressure in the port is increased.

Small port heads have a higher velocity of fluid flow in comparison to the big port head.

[Frak]

Small ports have a smaller internal area with comparison to the big port head.
Obvious yeah, I know, but as the area of flow increases, the velocity of the fluid in the area (port in this case) decreases, but as a side note, pressure in the port is increased.

Small port heads have a higher velocity of fluid flow in comparison to the big port head.


If someone can supply a nice clean bigport and small port head, I'll flow bench em.

[Classic_King]

i do but in briz

[sun_moon]

by the way

http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3594

[trueno85]

how come you would only use the smallport head? i thought the rods are good enough to hold high rpm as long as you change the pins?


Sorry, didn't dial in after, once they were optimised I guess it doesn't matter other than for reference, but we ran out of time. If I had them(I guess I can find out) I would post up, no secrets.

The engine had been rebuilt so was fairly fresh.

sounds good mate, if you do find out what the settings were let me know as i would be very interested to know

[Classic_King]

If Bill Sherwood is anything to go by then if using 304 or more cams a big port might be a better option. Obviously this is a pretty crazy engine though.


180hp - 190hp
Definitely 304° cams, and you'll have to start paying attention to tuning the inlet manifold length, if you haven't done so already. This is also getting to the limit of what a lightly ported small port head can manage.

190hp - 200hp
Getting towards the upper limit of 304° cams, and you'll also need to have the compression up to a good 11:1. 200hp is about the limit for a small port head, no matter what the porting, so from here on the big port is the way to go. Another area that has pretty much reached its limit is the stock valves - Past 200hp you'll be needing the big valve kit. More on that next paragraph.
The standard exhaust manifold has also reached its limit, so 200hp is about as far as you can go with an engine that still retains a large amount of standard parts. It will need to be revved to around 9,000rpm to get 200hp, though if built properly the engine will still be able to be driven on the road.

I’m guessing those hp figures are it the flywheel.

[sun_moon]

well a smallport has the best port velocity and also compression stock compare to a bigport also stock.

modify them both and still the smallport should have an advantage.

for a streetable engine i would always use a smallport.

my mr2 is a bigport and my trueno is a smallport and the 2 engines feel pretty different i think in terms of streetability and other factors.

toyota wouldnt switch to an inferior design ;)

[slide86]

If I were to do a 16V I would only use a small port head.

same opinion for a forced induction engine?

[land yacht]

for forced induction 20v

[Robo86]

hmm after this i now want ae111 quads + hks 264s... like the sound of 90 wheel kw

[sundee]

i had this setup in my car.. bigport 16v 264' cams with adj gears (so they say) Ae111 quads but it was running an SAFC from Japan and stock BIGport ECU.
all vacume lines fed into a small plenum then 2 feeds out of it.

it had no vacume lines hooked to the vacume sensor, it went to the charcol canister behind the front drivers headlight.

i hooked it up to the vacume sensor one day and the idle went all irratic so i just disconnected it and put it back how it was.

it always ran rich.. but now im putting the motor into a ke70.. i am debaiting weather to go the stock ECU now that i hear it can be ran on the ecu alone.. 90 rwkw sounds nice.

it would be alot cheaper to.

Frak was it just a matter of dialing in the cams?
i might throw it in in the next few days and see if putting a plastic fuel filter in the line for the vacume feed

[Wiggles]

Awesome stuff Frak, thanks.

What's the general procedure to dial in cams?
Do you just adjust one cam a degree or two at a time and check the dyno results until the power band is where you want it?
How do you go about dialing in stuff like overlap?

[Frak]

To compare to the GE's these are the power and torque curves from a completely standard 7AFE efi vehicle.
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1118/7apowerc.jpg (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/7apowerc.jpg/)
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3962/7atorquec.jpg (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/7atorquec.jpg/)
Compare the power and torque compared to a bigport 4AGE, sure the rpm isn't there but it has more torque(everywhere) and power.

[Frak]

Awesome stuff Frak, thanks.

What's the general procedure to dial in cams?
Do you just adjust one cam a degree or two at a time and check the dyno results until the power band is where you want it?
How do you go about dialing in stuff like overlap?

Thanks.

Well, years ago I would go to the bother of putting a degree wheel on when I started making changes, but the use of a dyno changed that. Really, does it matter what the cam timing numbers are IF you optimise it to get the best torque/power???

I have people say "what were the cam specs, 110/112.....what were they?", I reply they are set at optimal for that engine, you may say well what about next time, it's nice to have a point of reference, BUT all engines are different, I would just go through the procedure again, I guess this is the difference between a good running engine and an ok running engine.

It's like these guys that do generic tunes for cars that you can buy over the internet and flash yourself.....they are not optimal for YOUR car, last night during a dyno session on a 6.0litre VE SS we saw how fussy an engine can be, we were altering timing via EFILive and the engine was doing things we didn't expect considering the conditions.

Some people will say hey set your cams up at 108/110, that will be the best BUT until you have tried each configuration and have datalogged data for analysis it's all just guessing.

Remember ALL engines are different, I have had guys put cars on the dyno, they have dialled in cams before they come on, I say lets change them......"NO!!! they work best at 108/110", eventually I persuade them to alter, when they see good gains from optimising the cams to their engine, they change their minds!

What I usually do is put the cams in at manufactures specs, do a run, log as much as possible. Then alter each cam individually, advance intake say 2 deg, do a run, advance intake 4, do a run, then put intake back to stock do the same but this time retarding the cam then start the same with the exhaust cam.

Each run is saved, I then overlay all the runs on the screen to see what is going on, I then start combinations of intake and exhaust at the same time and check runs to see what is going on with torque etc.

This can take a while but you build up a fantastic database of how the cam timing can effect an engine. Sometimes the same engine type(4AGE for example) with similar mods will act completely different just due to one little difference between engines!

All engines are different when it comes to what they like, the 4AGE small port with the quads, 264's etc, did not like any overlap AT ALL, that motor was also very fussy when it came to cam timing changes, 1 deg off optimal would completely change the engine's characteristics.

When messing with cam timing MAKE SURE you know when the valves may touch the piston or each other, you can do with out bending valves:crying:

Sometimes you may alter cam timing and get some good power up high, at the expense of low down torque, then I confer with the owner as to what majority of driving they do, when you explain how the engine will behave, I have found ALL owners will go for more torque down low over a couple more kw's up high.

Generally what I find, is when you get close with the cam timing, small gains up high, will ruin the majority of the torque curve down low, for example a 2 kw gain at the top can ruin 2/3's of the torque band, this may be ok in a lightweight car with a close ratio gearbox which isn't driven in traffic!

With regards to using the vacuum chamber when putting quads on, I HIGHLY recommend some formn o0f restrictor/dampener inline with the vacuum canister/MAP sensor, I personally would use what the factory uses on an AE111, this I know works and works well.

[Frak]

for forced induction 20v


:thumbup: +1

[charged]

Once you go BLACK you'll never go back:hehe:.....................I do mean the engine :thumbup:

Have to agree jamie, I cant wait to give my engine some tlc, a bit more comp and e85 and see what it makes on adams dyno :)

[Frak]

small port, ae111 quads, fidanza sprockets, I.mec rams
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/9/17278.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/i/03062009.jpg/)

[kool mints]

Hey Guys,

Installed my Camtech 266 degrees 8.75mm lifts Cams today, can feel the extra punch around mid to top end and also revs nicely to redline as in before it would chocked up top end.

Also, adjusted the TPS screw next to the TPS sensor to over come the car from shutting down after braking. All good.

NOW:

Only problem i have now is that car would not IDLE nicely, it would be stable for less than a min and would just fluctuated and then the car would shut off on its own. By the looks of it, its properly ranning lean, correct me if i'm wrong?

What would i need to do to over come this IDLE problem? Adjust the idle controller?

Its currently IDLING on 1200rpm

Bear in mind, i'm ranning stock JDM ECU on JDM 4age 16v blue top.

Any tips, advice would be much appreciated guys.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers

[Frak]

Bringing back from the dead! Have a number of new 4age runs, and a few other 4cyl NA to compare.

[Tim.duncan]

do share! need to get you to do a run on my new 4 cly na!

[H8CHIR6KU]

awesome thread revival!! never would have known it was there otherwise.

frak; what are the chances you have some dyno graphs of some 7age engines with different cam setups?

[70XIN]

^ I'll have two comparisons by the end of this week ;)

Look forward to seeings frak's selection!!

[Frak]

Sorry guys haven't done a 7age, I was flat out at work today, so haven't had time to do scans, have day off this week will do then.

If anyone wants to donate a 4age big/small port head in good condition I can get a 7age together with bits I have at work and put on the engine dyno, of course then a selection of cams would be nice to do some back to backs.

[Prime86]

Great thread and an awesome job done by Frak and the boys.

Sure lots of people will benifit from your discussions and the information your guys have supplied.
Im intrested to see the flow bench results of the 16V Big/small port heads. Also the results of the dyno's back to back with the combo's on the 7age, Big port head especially.
Great work Frak, keep us up to date with your findings.

[H8CHIR6KU]

so has anyone else got any printouts or any info on their experience with 7age and aftermarket cams??

[jay70]

bump. anyone got more results?

[meadan]

This was my setup, made 82rwkw at uni group. I never kept the dyno printout, but it had a flatspot around 4500rpm and gained around 25kw between 5000-5500rpm before being pretty linear to max power at 7500rpm.

4age smallport
4-2-1 extractors
292 degree, 7.5mm lift cams
ae101 itbs
130mm trumpets
adjustable cam gears, cam timing same as stock

[jay70]

292s would make max power later than 7500 i would've thought? is that stock ecu

[blair]

This was my setup, made 82rwkw at uni group. I never kept the dyno printout, but it had a flatspot around 4500rpm and gained around 25kw between 5000-5500rpm before being pretty linear to max power at 7500rpm.

4age smallport
4-2-1 extractors
292 degree, 7.5mm lift cams
ae101 itbs
130mm trumpets
adjustable cam gears, cam timing same as stock

this is nuts. i have 80rwkw at 6900.
4age 20v bottom, bigport head. 40 Webbers.
standard everything except .8mm TRD gasket

i think you needed to dial them in just a tad!

on a personal note: anyone happened to check valve/piston clearance with 20v pistons and bigport head? (hahaha)

I think im just gonna buy some 264/270 8.1's and see what happens...:yeah:

[Jacobxxx]

Mine has max power at 6000 :?

[Matt]

Stickied thread in hope of more results being posted up...

[whips]

yes love this thread,need more dyno sheets with all engine specs! i have one coming soon

[meadan]

ooh whoops, i meant 6500rpm.

lol 7500rpm would be crazy talk!

[Sam-Q]

max power with 292 cams at only 6500? sounds strangely low to me

[Delazy]

^^^ agreed, should definitely be higher...

[Rice86]

correct me if im wrong but Adans engine is stock internally with bolt in/bolt on mods, no head work and still stock compression.

wont you need to up the comp and better head work to maximize these cam spec for better HP output?

could be a tuner issue too, just not taking the time to get the most out of a tune, seems to happen a lot these days, they seem to be picky with the cars, sometime they put a lot of effort and most of the time its an in and out job.

being stock internally you wouldn't want to push it past 8000rpm for reliability reasons too right?

[bunki86]

I wouldn't get to hung up on HP numbers from different dynos, you can't compare different dyno machine numbers. The curve is only the thing you can kinda compare.

[meadan]

Yeah I cant remember now, I never took much notice of the dyno graph as it really doesnt mean much to me.

But it was reasonably low for cams of such high duration. But they did have basically stock lift, and it was a standard engine so that wasnt doing it any favours.
The cam timing was only set to stock too, I never ended up playing with the timing so Im not sure what difference that would have made.

There were definately gains to be had, but for what it was worth it was alot more fun than stock cams.

[pen15]

this is my current setup

bt20v 1600cc

toda cams in and ex 288 deg 9.2mm lift
superteck springs
arp bolts throughout
stock bottomend
trd gasket

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/2/8/407478.jpg

[Big T]

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/9/8/2/507275.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/dynoresult.jpg/)


Rebuilt/blueprinted 4age: smallport block/bigport head, GZE 8.9 comp pistons.
HKS gt2540 @ 20 psi.
272 deg 7.6mm lift TRD cams dialled in @ 100/100
TRD valve springs
Minor headwork (port matched and 3 angle valve cut)

Actually had a few leaks in in the system (out pipe on the turbo and manifold leak) so am hoping for a bit more now they're sorted.

Eddie.

[Course_Out]

Howdy everyone, just chasing some experiences/opinions. Thought it might be better to add it here, rather than start a new thread.

I run a bigport 4age equipped ae86 as a hill climb/drift car/lap dash car. As with most 4age's it needs the valve stem seals doing and we have discovered the current head is no good (heavy wear and scoring on the cams and the head) so I have gotten hold of a second head to put on. While it is apart to replace the stem seals I figured we might as well put some cams in it.

Now basically I want to keep a strong mid range and have a little more up top (our local course is mostly second gear, so a bit more legs wouldn't hurt). I intend to keep the standard exhaust manifold as it seems to not be much of a restriction at the power levels I am chasing. To remain in my class I also have to use the standard inlet manifold, although mine has been modified to have a bigger TB. The car is fitted with a very old Microtech programmable computer, so a retune is easy. Diff ratio is 4.3 and cannot be changed.

I have been looking at the Tomei Poncams as they seem to fit the bill of what I am after, and can be had for around $600 from RHD Japan. I will be changing the valve springs as well, mainly because I feel it is cheap insurance. Has anyone used these cams? Any opinions on whether these will achieve what I am after? Or are there any local grinds that might do a better/similar job for around the same money? These are the specs:

SPECIFICATIONS:
-- Remarks: Outer Shim Type
-- Duration (degree): 264°
-- Max Cam Lift(mm): 8.10
-- Max Valve lift(mm):
--- Intake: 7.90
--- Exhaust: 7.85
-- Cold Valve clearance (mm)[+/-0.01]:
--- Intake: 0.20
--- Exhaust: 0.25
-- Lobe Center Angle (initial):
--- Intake: 106
--- Exhaust: 110
-- Base Circle(mm): 28

Thanks guys, any help is appreciated

[gerkn]

Hi New to the forum, currently working on 4AGE build myself for my AE92 GT-S and found this thread. My build is for the street but I would like to get into amateur track racing just for fun.
My first build I'm looking at Tomei Cam gears, Tomei 264* cams, 4-2-1 header, thin head gasket .8mm?, simple pnp and valve job, and obviously timing kit replacement and short ram intake with stock exhaust size straight pipe with chambered muffler and resonator. Everything else stock.

Questions, I would like to see roughly a 40hp increase from this as it will cost me around $1300 to build. Can I see this kind of gain WITHOUT ITB's and stock ECU? I'm basing my info off of the dyno graph previously posted about the smallport with a similar build on page 4.

Has anyone seen an actual number of HP or KW gain from switching a ram intake to ITB'S running a 264 cam?

and finally, any tips on the best way to increase CR to 10.5-11:1? will a .8mm head gasket suffice or will I need to deck the block or change pistons?

[Sam-Q]

Hi New to the forum, currently working on 4AGE build myself for my AE92 GT-S and found this thread. My build is for the street but I would like to get into amateur track racing just for fun.
My first build I'm looking at Tomei Cam gears, Tomei 264* cams, 4-2-1 header, thin head gasket .8mm?, simple pnp and valve job, and obviously timing kit replacement and short ram intake with stock exhaust size straight pipe with chambered muffler and resonator. Everything else stock.

Questions, I would like to see roughly a 40hp increase from this as it will cost me around $1300 to build. Can I see this kind of gain WITHOUT ITB's and stock ECU? I'm basing my info off of the dyno graph previously posted about the smallport with a similar build on page 4.

Has anyone seen an actual number of HP or KW gain from switching a ram intake to ITB'S running a 264 cam?

and finally, any tips on the best way to increase CR to 10.5-11:1? will a .8mm head gasket suffice or will I need to deck the block or change pistons?

Short stacks are a bad idea, you will just lose power everywhere. I also suggest a 20v oil pump and as for your compression ratio you didn't say which engine you have now exactly?

Quad throttle do work really well so I would suggest this with a new tune over the stock ecu

[gerkn]

Short stacks are a bad idea, you will just lose power everywhere. I also suggest a 20v oil pump and as for your compression ratio you didn't say which engine you have now exactly?

Quad throttle do work really well so I would suggest this with a new tune over the stock ecu

Sorry, I knew I forgot something. I have a 2nd gen 16v big port with 42mm crank 9.4:1 compression (86kw).
I'm trying to do this on a budget as close to $1000 usd as possible, also trying to avoid any low end work for now.
Going to work on building a megasquirt and MSD ignition eventually after the engine build when I get more money.
Huge plans later on but trying to keep it cheap so I can get to learning how to race on the track or autocross.

For now I'm wondering what kind of gains I'm missing by not going with ITB's and what kind of difference I would see by increasing CR.
What is the best way to increase my CR without ripping out the block? is 10.5:1 more attainable than 11:1?

[Big T]

The only way to bump compression without changing pistons is to deck the head and block and run a thinner HG. This however is a poor substitute for pistons as to get up to the CR you want you will need to skim a fair bit off. You will lose squish areas in the head and I'm willing to bet you will have issues setting up the timing belt due to the loss in height of the engine.

You will need to pull the crank/pistons out anyway to get the block decked so I would suggest getting pistons at the same time.

[Matt]

You're best to wait until you can do the pistons as well.

You can get a decent set of pistons for around $400. I'd be looking into 12:1 compression or there abouts given the decent fuel systems we have today and aftermarket ecu's available.

[Sam-Q]

I suggest fitting 100 or 110mm stacks and then saving your money for the engine management

[Sprinter Freak]

hey guys,

Am putting a set of Toda 272deg 7.9mm lift cams in my 16v 4age. also putting a set of quads and going an aftermarket ecu as well. But am wondering, will i need to bump up the compression to make the most out of the cams? i've had the engine rebuilt and they skimed off a fair bit of the head and the block so id assume would have raised the compression a bit. Am also running a cometic head gasket(either 0.8mm or 1.0mm thick cant rememer)

Am also wondering how much of a difference would it make getting the ports de dagged/lighty ported with no bottom end work and mildish cams?

[Matt]

Yep Ryan, more compression means the car will rev out further. Bigger cams means it'll make power later in the rev range.

[Slimer86]

The higher duration lift of cam you choose denotes the requirement to raise compression. This is due to the loss of dynamic compression as duration of the camshaft increases.

That being said, I have witnessed a silvertop 20v respond very well to a toda 272/264 camshaft setup with no change to dynamic compression (pistons or thinner head gasket) but static compression is higher out of the factory in comparison to a big or smallport.

[Matt]

Blacktop 20vs respond really well to the trd head gaskets

[Sprinter Freak]

Cheers for your input guys. I understand that the dynamic compression lowers as you go bigger cams. What sort if compression ratio would be optimal for a mild can upgrade? The toda paperwork that came with the cans said they recommend a compression ratio of 11:1:8 for 272 cams.

Have also read read that staggering the cams (bigger intake smaller exhaust) smoothens out the torque curve and widens the power band, is this true? Would it be a good idea to run a 272/264 combo rather then 272/272?

And what sort of compression increase would I see from changing to a Trd 0.8mm head gasket over the cometic 1.0mm?

[Sprinter Freak]

Also would it be better to pull the vacuum signal from the vac nipples on the top of the throttle bodies or from the barbs on the bottom of the techno toy tuning manifold?

[Sam-Q]

Also would it be better to pull the vacuum signal from the vac nipples on the top of the throttle bodies or from the barbs on the bottom of the techno toy tuning manifold?

I am pretty sure the throttle blades covers up part if not all of those holes out of the throttles when at idle, could be wrong though as the throttles I have seen have always been covered in gunk

[Sprinter Freak]

hmmm you might be right, will have a look and report back what i find.

On another note, i saw previously in this thread that frek was recommending running the stock vacuum damper inline to the map sensor. Would it be good to do this even tho i plan on using the techno toy tuning vacuum canister?

and which one of these is the vacuum damper? (taken off a set of ae101 throttle bodies)
31086

[Dylan]

Take the vacuum source from the barbs on the manifold to a vacuum block such as the T3, not sure which one the dampener is, but it may still be noisy (fluctuating signal) you should be able to filter the signal in the ECU settings.

[Sprinter Freak]

yea thats what i was thinking, will get a stronger vacuum signal from there as well. i wont be tuning the ECU but will make sure i tell the tuner that when i get the car tuned.

has anyone got any info on stagger the cam sizes? does it actually smoothen out the torque curve? and would i get more overall peak torque/power with the 272/272 against the 272/264 combo?

[Flush-on-15s]

yea thats what i was thinking, will get a stronger vacuum signal from there as well. i wont be tuning the ECU but will make sure i tell the tuner that when i get the car tuned.

has anyone got any info on stagger the cam sizes? does it actually smoothen out the torque curve? and would i get more overall peak torque/power with the 272/272 against the 272/264 combo?

I am also very interested to know if the "staggered" cam idea works as I have a 16v bigport running on carbs with powercraft 4-2-1 extractors, stock internals at the moment and looking to upgrade cams... was thinking of toda 272, 7.9mm lift cams like you were ryan, but if i can get a better torque curve (better for street use) I would love to do this..

[Rice86]

I am also very interested to know if the "staggered" cam idea works as I have a 16v bigport running on carbs with powercraft 4-2-1 extractors, stock internals at the moment and looking to upgrade cams... was thinking of toda 272, 7.9mm lift cams like you were ryan, but if i can get a better torque curve (better for street use) I would love to do this..

kinda long but bare with me, this is my real life experience and why i say keep it closer to stock for the street.

closer to stock cams will be better suited for street then such cams of the likes 272. as mentioned already larger cams, bigger cams, whatever you want to call it, its nature is that is will shift power and torque to later rev range, meaning power at top end, sucks for the street until you hit the sweet spot which then it starts going.

random night drive with another fellow AE86 owner. His 16v is possibly the best one going on the street no doubt so far, has all the work inside out. me on the other hand, even though my 16v was a JDM bigport, im going to say it was stock internally and pretty sure it was, but with the right combination of stuff to get the engine revving harder then stock, light flywheel, better diff ratio etc.

around the touge you can really see where both cars had pros and cons considering both of us i believe had similar driving style, we weren't being shy that night. anyway the only time his car pulled away was when there was a long enough straight for him to go past 5000rpm im guessing, but anything before 5000 rpm even on the straight road i would actually be gaining distance on him, but then VTEC kicks in and i watch him pull away, but by that time the next corner had come up and i would be sitting on his rear bar again. On short note, he couldnt use his power to an advantage on the street. On a track i wouldn't be able to keep up no doubt, his car is so much better on paper i wouldn't expect anything less, but on the street where being on the absolute limit is nearly impossible. Near stock has its own advantage big time.

ive also driven a mild toda spec 16v 4age, toda pistons, toda flywheel, toda cams (264/272 if i remember correctly), toda ECU. it went hard but only after 5000rpm. down low it was ok for street driving, but put your foot down, dont expect it to pull like a stocker, but when it comes on song, its worth the wait

[Jacobxxx]

Who drives a 4a under 5k hahah

[timbo]

- Small port
- stock bottom end
- tidied head
- TRD 0.8mm hg
- lightly shaved head
- 11.?:1 compression ratio
- TRD 272 cams 7.5mm, in & out. Ex. max lift set at 98° BTDC. In. max lift set at 100° ATDC.
- T3 adjustable cam gears

A lot of fun, just need more rpm! Dialed in they are very lumpy and getting the engine to idle is a pretty hard. That said, once driving there are no issues and the car pulls strong, all the way to 7800rpm. I have wound them back a few times with good results for normal driving but obviously you substitute power for economy. They really need an after-market ecu to utilise all their potential and that will be my next step. So when people say you can't run 272 cams on a stock ecu all they mean is it's the upper most limit, still doable but you sacrifice a few things in the name of it all.

[Bren]

It's a bit of an old thread, but saves making a new one.

I have a bigport 16 valve, that as far as I am aware is pretty standard internally. Apparently has had some porting done in the head, but this is not confirmed as I haven't taken manifold off/pulled cam covers off etc yet. I want to get some big duration cams for it. Big duration, but reasonable low lift so as not to need to change to shim under buckets.

I made a bit of an impulse Yahoo bid on a big HKS cam. 304°, 8.1mm lift. There is only one, so I'll need to get another, but price is cheap. Has anyone had experience with these big HKS cams? Also, am I correct in saying that exhaust cam can be put in intake, but not the other way around? This one is advertised as intake, but says can be put in exhaust, and it has the gear on it for the dizzy.

Also, before you guys get your knickers in a twist, in the (hopefully) near future I am going to build a 5A stroker with (I am thinking) 12:1 compression, so the cams should respond well to that set up, I believe.

Should I look for another 304°, 8.1mm cam, or should I stagger the sizes? No one has really said whether there is an advantage.

Cheers.

Edit - Should also mention, I will be running silvertop ITBs.

[Matt]

The different duration cams assists with overlap and all that. With modern fuels and a good computer a higher compression ratio should be achievable but with cams that size you'd want to swing it pretty high in the rev range to make the most of them.

The stroker kits out there are expensive and tbh the extra displacement they offer is fairly minimal.

[Bren]

I am getting the stroker kit for a very good price. Sure the extra displacement isn't heaps, but they do make a noticeable difference in torque, and moving the torque curve lower down the rev range. I think this will be beneficial with big cams like these :) I have a pretty good aftermarket computer, and have read quite a lot of threads saying that 12:1 is very achievable. I am thinking about putting the cams in before I build the good bottom end. That might make it a bit crap to drive, though?

[timbo]

Cams that size will be crap to drive around town anyway, I'm running TRD 272's and idling and traffic are total pains. I'd put them in and see what you can do with them, as in tuning etc.

[Bren]

I need to get another to match, at this stage it is just one. But yeah, when I do I'll definitely chuck them in and see how it goes. I am not too concerned. I think the stroker and high compression will help heaps, when I get the good engine built, and I'll just suck it up until then. Going to get an idle control valve put on when I get the car re-wired, which hopefulyl coincides with cams and quads install. That will help with crappy idle.

[Bren]

Turns out I won't be getting the massive cams. A late comer to the auction outbid me while I was at work so I missed them. All good though, a mate has a set of Crow 280 x 8.5mm cams that will be much more suitable :) thanks for the input.

[YoShImUrA]

Hi guys,

I am swapping my original 16v which has 256 and 264 HKS cams (not sure where which, as I never fitted them, but suspect 264 for intake) and a TRD head gasket that runs great, but I want more power for the track, without going for boost. I want to stay NA above all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDH-Lhs4d20

So, I've bought a 20 valve blacktop. I hope to swap it by the end of the year, and I'm still gathering parts for it.

So far, I have:

- 20v BT (will be rebuilt with Toyota parts, new oil pump with oil pressure raise kit, etc)
- K1/Pass Racing header
- Microtech ECU, data logger and dash
- COP 1NZ conversion
- TRD/Carrillo FA rods redone for 20mm pins
- MRP N2 tensioner

Will probably get, but haven't yet:
- SQ RWD cooling kit
- bigger radiator (Koyorad w/ mishimoto shroud) and oil cooler (with an electric pump)
- Toda Pistons
- Toda/Supertech valve springs
- Toda cams 272/264; Tomei poncams, or any other that you can recommend
- Trumpets/Velocity stacks, undecided but leaning towards TODA's 63mm to have decent mid-range, as well as good throttle response. Would love to hear some opinions on these too!
- MRP/Moroso baffled sump
- MRP girdle to reinforce the block

Trying to aim for 98 RON / 93 SAE pump gas, so I will probably have to stack a couple of metal head gaskets to stay under 11:1...?

I'm aiming to use the car 30% on the street and mountains, 10-20% freeway to go to the track (long distances, mostly, so getting a taller 5th) and the remaining percentage at the track, but my idea is to have a decent idle and driveability, without compromising performance at the track. Sounds too good, huh? That's why it's not easy for me to choose the cams.

Any recommendations and help are very welcome!

[Bren]

Couldn't you specify your compression ratio when buying pistons, so as not to stack head gaskets? That sounds like a crap idea...

[YoShImUrA]

I'd love to, but TODA states the CR and doesn't give any options AFAIK.

[dansomerville]

Why not just run the 12:1 pistons? What's the point spending all that money on shiny brand name parts to not get the best out of them? Especially stacking gaskets.

I run CP 12:1's on 98, no problems with 284/278 cams. I still retain vvt, starts easy, doesn't lack a bottom end and makes good power across the rev range.

Or if you want the lower compression ratio just use stock pistons? It's proven they're a good quality item, just no wank factor.

[Bren]

What CR do black top 20v have from standard? If it is 11:1 or close to it, I agree that you should just use stock pistons. But there are plenty of people with 12:1 on 98 octane fuel. As long as the tuner knows what he is doing there should be no problems. What model Microtech? I have been told by a few experienced tuners that they aren't the best for cars with wit ITBs as the resolution isn't good enough at low load/light throttle.

[YoShImUrA]

Standard is 11:1 I think, yes. We're considering getting forged pistons from Supertech, since they are 11:1 and we don't need to mess with the timing to be able to use 98 and not be worried about knocking.

Ecu is LT9c. Not happy to read what you're saying, as I plan to be able to drive the car on the street every once in a while, as well as drive long distances to the tracks.

[Sam-Q]

More info for 20V cams

I have been given the dyno run of a proper before / after tune from OEM blacktop to some 193C cams from Kelfords and the result was dismal. It was with VVT enabled and it lost power all the way up to 5400RPM and only gained 6% in the peak. They even tried using an offset vin for the VVT pulley to get more out of it. I know that they had it tuned before and after but I don't know the engine specifications. This isn't the first time I have heard of poor results with cams from this company.


On the other hand I keep hearing good things about the Tomei "Poncams", they might be a sedate grind and are a drop in for a stock engine but they are proven to work with the stock cam pulleys using VVT and gain more power than they rightfully should.

Official page:
http://www.tomei-p.co.jp/_2003web-catalogue/087_cam_4AG.html

Back to back run from a North American workshop that produced a similar dyno result to what the company claims (that's a first!):
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/impp-1207-tomei-powered-poncams/

What looks to be the cheapest place for people to Australia to order them from:
http://www.perfectrun.jp/src/detail.php?pid=40011&pname=CAMSHAFT%20%22PONCAM%22&maker=TOMEI&maker_id=40&result_mode=qui&cbid=100&carid=100023_10006


The other option I have been finding out more info from is sourced from the Australian company Tighe, also VVT proven and they are as follows:

Duration: 252 at 0.05" - of note Japanese companies seem to measure at 0.00" / "advertised duration" which is always a higher number.
Lift: 8.9 to 9mm.

They also told me that they have a profile that is the same as what's used on a Honda CBR1000 motorbike. Same size bucket so it makes sense, probably works well but it's a very long duration so no VVT option.

[timbo]

Tighe seem to know there stuff. I visited them once and spoke to one of the sons, had so much knowledge on 4A's and they actually race them so I guess that helps.

[LittleRedSpirit]

Poncams always looked like the best compromise to me as well, Its interesting to note how accurate the Claims are too!

Anyone can design a camshaft with some effort and maths but its the testing and refinement that a company like Tomei can afford to do that can set them apart. Like Ivan Tighe with K motor cams, some people just have the runs on the board.

[Kenshin Himura]

Once you go BLACK you'll never go back:hehe:.....................I do mean the engine :thumbup:
set up a 7age, it does most of the tricks and kick more butts.

[Kenshin Himura]

Remember it's the velocity of the air going thru the port that matters.........not how huge the port is ;)

if you have a huge port, will you have a huge velocity of air too?
I asked this question because i have a bigport sitting on my 7a block and a small port red top in my garage.
i would really appreciate for some advice.

[Big T]

if you have a huge port, will you have a huge velocity of air too?
I asked this question because i have a bigport sitting on my 7a block and a small port red top in my garage.
i would really appreciate for some advice.

No it doesn't work like that. Imagine blowing through a straw... There is some restriction yes but the air speed out of the end is fairly high.
Blow exactly the same force through a 3" pipe... Zero restriction but almost no flow at the other end. There is an optimum port size that matches the air consumption of your engine.

Unless you're going turbo where you can forcibly stuff more air into the ports, the smallport head will be better in stock form.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Futo_gt86]

Just re read this entire thread looking for a bit of info on forced induction cam choices......specifically with use of a turbo.
I just read about a 300rwhp 4AGTE running "272" cams, but had no other specs of info
Who here has experience with or knows of 4AGTE punching out decent power....
What cams work best?
What lift is desirable?

[Big T]

Just re read this entire thread looking for a bit of info on forced induction cam choices......specifically with use of a turbo.
I just read about a 300rwhp 4AGTE running "272" cams, but had no other specs of info
Who here has experience with or knows of 4AGTE punching out decent power....
What cams work best?
What lift is desirable?

My 4agte makes 270rwkw with trd 272 deg 7.9mm lift cams on 22psi of boost. They're dialed in at 98 deg intake, 101 exhaust. Generally with turbo, higher lift with lower duration is preferred. The lower duration helps with low end turbo spool.

The next motor will have 272 deg 10.2mm lift. I did actually want to go 264 11mm but the ramp rate of the cams would've destroyed the buckets and cams very quickly. Head needs clearancing to run cams with that lift and under buckets. Oddly, kelford recommends 108 deg intake and 116 deg exhaust for this cam combo. I'll see how they run on dyno as my understanding was 272s should be close to 100 @ top dead.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Slimer86]

Running toda 264 7.9mm lift. 175rwkw @ 13psi
On stock was 164rwkw at 18psi.
It way falling flat in the top end, so after lots of research on the evo forums, found this to be the best solution.
Also fitted new toda valve springs in the process.
Toda advised me to time it according to the cam cards supplied.
It now takes on a new lease on life after about 6k.
It still has a bit of a lump, and idles at 1000rpm (1000cc injectors too). On e85 its a bit of an animal. 195rwkw on 13psi.
FYI, it is smallport gze bottom and top except for valve train mods and a few extra tweaks.
Td05hra-15gk-10.5t from a 6.5 TME.
Evos punch in excess of 270 @ wheels on >30psi with this turbo, but I am not that game.

[bunki86]

i reckon cams should always be timed on the dyno, cam card specs are good to start with but they really need to be dialed in on the dyno then tested on the road/track, and setup by some one that isnt just into peak numbers.i had a dyno guy mess with my cam timing and was happy he got 400 odd at wheels with my 4a. but when i drove it,it was doughy as. he advanced the inlet way to much and it sucked. i retarded the inlet and it went much better, way more grunt down low. my peak hp is prolly down 15+hp but mid range is tonnes better. and with the size of my turbo and size of cams, i really need to mid range to pick up as fast as it can, as i have no low end at all. 23psi on pump fuel. going e85 this time with a few new parts and block as it spread the bores into the water galleries.

[Slimer86]

I totally agree with timing it on the dyno, to your own driving style. Just haven't had a chance to get back for another touch up tune

[Futo_gt86]

Excellent feedback guys, and quick too.
I am in the process researching/gathering info and parts to build up an AE101 16V GZE smallport motor into 4AGTE.
300+hp would be incredible, hell, I'd be pleased with 1 bar pushing 220-250hp at the wheels.
I have a set of Toda 272 7.9 on hand, and they shall be used.
Thanks for the info.

[Slimer86]

Highly recommend changing to toda valve springs if you haven't already done so. Then fit the cams. Keep us updated on your progress

[Futo_gt86]

Highly recommend changing to toda valve springs if you haven't already done so. Then fit the cams. Keep us updated on your progress

Can you please explain why you highly recommend this?
Excuse my ignorance on this matter, I thought Valve spring upgrades were mainly for high lift, 8.5-11mm, applications to prevent binding.

I only want to run 12-14psi, but if and unopened GZE with a SC14 pushed to 12psi works all day every day, why is there a necessity to upgrade?
What is the OEM fail point?

I have been looking at both the TODA uprated springs and their shim under bucket conversion.
The springs alone were cheap enough.
Do you mean the shim under bucket conversion?

[Big T]

Take a look at supertech gear as well if looking at underbuckets.

Valve spring upgrades are recommended, firstly due to the age of the existing springs. Heat cycling them will eventually fatigue the metal and possibly lead to failure. If adding boost as well, the pressure to close the valves will increase. If the motor has low kms, you might get away with it but for the $200, it's a cheap upgrade.


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[Slimer86]

Information regarding boosted 4ag engines is very limited, almost to the extent of lack of experience,knowledge or individuals not disclosing information (black magic or dark art? I think not). When I started my project most turbo 4ag were utilizing t25/28 or in rare cases td04 wrx turbo. 98% of cases I researched were running stock valve train.
This made me broaden my research scope to a similar engine, the humble 4g63. Cam tests back to back was available including duration and lift. Most cases the springs were replaced with aftermarket items. This motion was highly supported by my tuner, largely because of valve float not seating under high boost conditions.
This was featured in my original tune where power dipped in the upper rev range but not due to turbo efficiency, lack of fuel or spark, or exhaust movement (choking).
I did have valve springs sitting on the shelf, but looking back at it I think I would have changed them in any case.

[bunki86]

Unless ya have big lift or turning ya motor to 9k. I wouldn't waste money on them toda under bucket shims. Then you have to pay some one to set them up. If they dont supply the right shims, then they have to grind valve stems.
i just built a motor with them and i think he wasted money on that toda setup when the money could have been better spent else where.
uprated springs for sure. Ya running boost now so boost on the back of the valve is going to counter seat pressure.

[Futo_gt86]

Unless ya have big lift or turning ya motor to 9k. I wouldn't waste money on them toda under bucket shims. Then you have to pay some one to set them up. If they dont supply the right shims, then they have to grind valve stems.
i just built a motor with them and i think he wasted money on that toda setup when the money could have been better spent else where.
uprated springs for sure. Ya running boost now so boost on the back of the valve is going to counter seat pressure.

Toda uprated 16V springs are cheap enough, i'll get some happening.
Does the GZE run a different spring to a GE, or no?

[bunki86]

in stock form, i dont know. but aftermarket 4a 16v springs will with both.

[luke polyblank]

Hi im new to this site iv got a 1984 trueno booter 1.6 4age and ive come across this thread and am in need of advice !

im fitting a 272 deg cam to my 86 and ive got the following parts
cam belt
water pump
steam seals
x2 camshafts
pulleys
gasket kit
head bolts

my cams are going to give me 8.1mm of lift will i need to change my shims ?
i dont want to start the job and become stuck and not have all the parts i need !
also can i install them and leave the timming relatively oem so i can get it rolling roaded / tuned ?

thank you in advance :)

[Slimer86]

Changing cams requires the clearances be checked and adjusted. You will need to make adjustments. Measure all shims as they are in position. May get lucky and just swap positions. Look on club4ag I think the thread was written by assasin86

[s2 sevs]

Hi, i'm looking to fit a 'race' cam with around 300 duration to my AE86 big port. It has forged pistons with 9.5 compression. Head is refurb but stock. I am open to changing to under bucket shims and new springs if required.

My question is simple: who should I buy these parts off if i am looking for the best deal? Appreciate company names and even online websites. I know this thread has some great information, but it is also very old at the start. I am based in Adelaide.

[tottacrolla]

Hi, i'm looking to fit a 'race' cam with around 300 duration to my AE86 big port. It has forged pistons with 9.5 compression. Head is refurb but stock. I am open to changing to under bucket shims and new springs if required.

My question is simple: who should I buy these parts off if i am looking for the best deal? Appreciate company names and even online websites. I know this thread has some great information, but it is also very old at the start. I am based in Adelaide.

Non turbo I guess with those cams ? If so then 300° cams could use a whole lot more compression, probably 11-11.5-1

[Slimer86]

Agree with above comment. Cams if you want it polite on the street, look for 272 or 264 with +7.9mm lift (toda). Can buy online, would not recommend ebay for cams or gears.

Sent from my GT-S7275Y using Tapatalk

[s2 sevs]

Agree with above comment. Cams if you want it polite on the street, look for 272 or 264 with +7.9mm lift (toda). Can buy online, would not recommend ebay for cams or gears.

Sent from my GT-S7275Y using Tapatalk

Thanks, yes NA. Will think about how I can increase the comp.

Any suggestions on good online stores for cams? I can't see how to buy toda over their website. Cheers