feedback wanted: a 20v coilpack adapter as a product to sell

[Sam-Q]

hi guys I have just finished machining something up that was suprisingly hard to do. It's a coilpack adapter plate that bolts to the valley of the 20v head in 3 places and then lets either the yaris/late echo or the early echo coilpacks to be fitted. If there is any interest I might get some more made up with a C&C mill. They are a full bolt on job and fit exactly right.

I would like to hear back from people if they think such a product would be wanted by anyone if the price was ok, or if anyone had an suggestions.

Apologies for the crap photos. The yaris coil is on the left and the early echo coil is on the right. They are in the actual position where they are used with this plate.

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/5/2/15306.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/5/2/15307.jpg


admins, please let me know if I breaking some rules here.

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

Would it be possible to laser cut instead? That could well make it bucketloads cheaper, as machining time would all but disappear.

Hen

[Sam-Q]

I will look into it, thanks for the tip

[quadeyquade]

He Sam, is there a performance improvement with this over the stock dizzy I have, and would it fit in a fwd setup?

[Adsie]

Yeah I would be interested pending price of course. Was looking for a way to hold them down as mine seem to move around heaps and get pushed up.

[Hokey]

i thought that coil on plug isn't ideal because of the heat the coil pack gets make them wear much quicker. that's why nissans always have coil pack problems. why not just stick with 4 externally mounted?

[Sam-Q]

quade: this will suit any 20v, you just unbolt the 3 clips that hold the original leads in and it uses those mountings instead. Coilpacks would not provide any power gain providing your leads, cap band rotor button are all brand new. After that it would be going downhill while the only servicable component with the coilpacks is the spark plug itself. The way I see it is bought these yaris coilpacks for $140 for all for (thanks to brendon/driftpig) and a new set of spark plug leads is around $100 and thats not even going into the imported dizzy cap if I had one.

Hokey: good point but this is once again a case of nissan = stupid engineering. There is no doubt that coilpacks get warm and have to shed the heat, have a look at the central cover of a 1JZ and you will see toyotas classy way of doing this. Nissan on the other hand had them buried right in the gap in the engine and also had a cover over the top that allowed for crap airflow. All modern engines that I know of are slowly going to coilpacks. I hear that with the Yaris coilpacks you can fit a silvertop cover back over the top, this will hurt the coilpacks for sure in the long run due to heat stress.

[Hokey]

haha stupid nissans. i knew you'd already thought of this sam.

Cheers

[Sam-Q]

hehhehee, thanks

although one person I have spoken to has already accepted the trade-off and will run a cover over his coils. I gues either way it would still take a long time before anything would happen.

[FAST EDDIE]

fk yeah where do i pay??!! make an alloy cover for them and ill take one of them aswell!!

[cracker]

make em for 16v? most people seem to use them here

[shift_rook]

saw seems to be an excellent idea! will definately rgab one when you can get me in a production run

[Anthony]

have you checked depth on the yaris ones Sam? In my experience they need to be pretty hard up against the cover to reach far enough down. 1ZZ ones should be OK though.

[pornstrv]

lit to know how much

[Sam-Q]

ok I talked to the machinist and I still need to work things out but it might end up being around $120 with toyota style bolts included, what do you guys think of that?

fast eddie: funny enough I checked and it appears I could in theory bolt a plate to the original position and have it clear all but the body of the coilpacks which is ideal. I should be able to do my own black anodising now too.

cracker: interesting idea, what coils do you think I should match them to though? SR20? I could do it as I do have a spare 16V engine here that need the head taken off anyway. So I could do all my measurements off that.

Anthony: I was told yaris coils but I need to double check. With whatever I have pushed right in will compress the rubber seal 2mm in and have the mounting tab 8mm proud. This plate is 12mm thick but if I was to get these made up I would just be out of 8mm plate instead and then use a spacer(s) for the echo coils. Are there any other coils I could have adapted with this plate?

[Sam-Q]

I will get some better pics soon too but I cant do it this week

[FAST EDDIE]

maybe fiberglass, i could make one of them 4 sho!! or cf on top of glass??

[Sam-Q]

funny you mention that I did think of trying to source some fiberglass sheet and get it water cut.

[FAST EDDIE]

I meant glass for the valley cover not the mountung plate!!!

[Sam-Q]

yes thats also what I meant. I can do a drawing for you if you like

I also want people to tell me bluntly if they think $120 is too much

[Jonny Rochester]

The way I have done mine, is to use 1ZZ-FE coils, which need no spacer plate. The coils are flush with the cam cover, and I had to make some holes in the cam cover to mount them.

But if you are using the taller coils (1AZ, 1NZ, 2ZZ?), and you have every manufacturing facility available to you, then I think you would end up with a thin bit of plate that is stamped and then folded. And I think RS-Chita or Impulse or one of those sell a plate like that. A thick alloy plate just seams heavy, and time consuming to make.

It is my opinion, that if you have a good design that works, that is optomised for cost and weight etc, you don't need to own any machines at all. Design on CAD and get it made in China. But taking it back 1 step, design on CAD, and get made in a small batch at a workshop down the road which uses CNC - CAM machines.

All depends on quantity.
If your making 5, do it yourself.
If your making 20, get a CNC run ordered at a proper workshop.
If your making 150, get the same shop to do it cheaper.
If you want 200, it's probably cheaper already to get it done in Italy or Tiawan or someplace. Australia is expensive and poor quality.

[Matt-AE86]

The way I have done mine, is to use 1ZZ-FE coils, which need no spacer plate. The coils are flush with the cam cover, and I had to make some holes in the cam cover to mount them.

But if you are using the taller coils (1AZ, 1NZ, 2ZZ?), and you have every manufacturing facility available to you, then I think you would end up with a thin bit of plate that is stamped and then folded. And I think RS-Chita or Impulse or one of those sell a plate like that. A thick alloy plate just seams heavy, and time consuming to make.

It is my opinion, that if you have a good design that works, that is optomised for cost and weight etc, you don't need to own any machines at all. Design on CAD and get it made in China. But taking it back 1 step, design on CAD, and get made in a small batch at a workshop down the road which uses CNC - CAM machines.

All depends on quantity.
If your making 5, do it yourself.
If your making 20, get a CNC run ordered at a proper workshop.
If your making 150, get the same shop to do it cheaper.
If you want 200, it's probably cheaper already to get it done in Italy or Tiawan or someplace. Australia is expensive and poor quality.

A++ post. Everything summed up and straight forward.

I also have 2NZFE coils on my 20v. As Johnny said, they fit flush. I take them to be with me at night because I love them for sitting flush.

Edit: My bad, I have the best ones, 2nzfe. :P

[Sam-Q]

Jonny can the ZZ coils be raised up a bit to keep the rubber seal? I don't like the idea of running no seal you see. I noticed that the earlier echo coils sit sit all that far down the spark plug tube even when the seal is butted up hard against the top cover. Given the chance I will have a better look at the ZZ coils but I would find another way of mounting them. Up untill this point I had only loved all your work and thought everything you did was simply awesome. But I was horiffied by you drilling the cam cover and tapping it. I didn't think you would do something like that, but its your engine so it's up to you.

I think I will start a new thread on coilpacks because I want to source all the connections and part numbers for all the available coils.

As for the plate your right now that I think about it I could make it out of some sheet, I would need to weld some bosses in for the fixing of the coil-packs though and I wouldn't be able to fold accurately enough. There is definately no argument it would be the fastest and cheapest way to go though on a mass production scale. I guess I could run a 4mm plate instead of an 8mm and run some spacers for even the Yaris coils, that would save me a bit of machining time and material cost. I will look into it so thanks heaps for the tip.

I cant do much myself because of the limited time I have, I only have access to a mill with a DRO at my night school once a week you see. But I think I have a pretty cheap deal worked out with a C&C machinist. I am not too serious about because I doubt I woudl even sell more than 5 a year. I like selling things to people in this country but I accept its a pretty small market.

BTW do you have a pic of an RS Chita or any other adapter out there?

[Sam-Q]

hey guys i have a decent pic now:

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/5/2/15637.jpg

[Anthony]

Yeah agree with most Johnny except the Australia = poor quality part. The best Australian quality, which is up there with anywhere in the WORLD, costs real money.

In China, poor quality is cheap, and normal quality costs moderate money.

edit: started the coil pack info thread Sam. And matt you have 2NZFE coils. these have a flat plug not angled and actually fit snug under the stock lead cover on a 20V.

[Jonny Rochester]

Quality is a big variable, and I know some of the best stuff in the world comes from Australia. But it depends on the culture of the company. With only a general notion of quality, and without heaps of money, I think the qualitly of work from a local Father and Son machine shop is greater effected by the general Australian attitudes and ethos. When things are just controlled by our upbringing etc, I think the average machine shop in Germany or Japan would do a better job. Because it is in their mentality, which starts in the home and school. A family business in Italy or Tiawan would do it cheaper. Etc...

If you get someone else to make this Sam, just make sure you tolerance all the dimensions (but not too tightly or it will cost). Far cheaper to make the holes slightly oversize. A good shop will not have a problem with the folds. And don't pay for a batch if their all 0.5mm out. I remember putting 30 bicycle hubs on my manual lathe to redo the bearing step, as the CNC operator didn't think it was so important...

I didn't want to drill the cam cover. But I can weld it later if I want. They are 6mm holes now, no thread. And a bolt goes through from underneath, with a drop of silicon. I'm not going to cry about it, it looks OK. I havn't fired up the motor yet, but the coils are flush with no seal. I plan to use a very thin rubber seal, or just some liquid sealant.

RS-CHITA
http://www.rschita.jp/5valveswap.htm
(scroll down)

http://www.rschita.jp/image/direct02.jpg

[Jonny Rochester]

By the way Sam, your spacer looks great. Probably the neatest thing anyone on this forum has made. If I had one of them I would use it and not worry any more about it.

[Sam-Q]

Anthony: I really appreciate you going to the trouble of making that new post and it helps with quite a few questions I had.

Jonny: It would get done on a mega dollar 5 axis mill, I am guessing the quality will be excellent. I will find out about the cutting speeds though. Oh and thanks for the compliment, it did take some serious work to measure and make despite its visual simplicity.

edit: I forgot to mention I have seen that RS Chita kit before but I forgot about it. That one is diffenent in that it replaces the entire valley cover. Those are some seriously long coils used I wonder what they are?

ANother thing you guys can help me with is I want some spacers with a 6mm hole for the mounting and my local bolt shop was no use. Who sells thick washers or something like that?

[quadeyquade]

By the way Sam, your spacer looks great. Probably the neatest thing anyone on this forum has made. If I had one of them I would use it and not worry any more about it.

IMO, everything Sam makes is awesome.

[Sam-Q]

hahahaha, thats just delusional and I am glad your joking. Oh man have I made some stinkers.

[Anthony]

FYI, the RS-Chita kit uses 2ZZGE coils.

[Sam-Q]

they are longer than the 1ZZ coils? if so I dont get why that would be

[Jonny Rochester]

Obviously the 2ZZ-GE coils are long, and I think the 1NZ/2NZ coils are long also. The 1AZ/2AZ coils are a medium length that can be used. The 1ZZ coils are short.

[Anthony]

That would be beacuse the 1ZZ and 2ZZ have completely different cylinder heads. The extra bulk of the VVTLi system means the 2ZZ coils have to be longer to reach down far enough.

Johnny 2NZ are short too. So short in fact that they fit under a 20V lead cover as mentioned. 1NZ, for reasons not quite as clear as the ZZ situation, are longer.

[Sam-Q]

I think we better start getting some measurements in these threads of lengths, I will post the two I know in the coilpack thread and also how I measured them.