4age won't start

[Brokenships]

Hey guys, I could really use some advice to save me spending more unnecessary money

Car model: 82 ke70 Panno - http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/fo...-4age-big-spec (http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/showthread.php/70031-1982-KE70-Panno-4age-big-spec)

Engine type: Smallport 16v 4AGE with EMS Stinger 4424 ECU

Problem: The car was running fine, then a month days ago i got about 7kms from home and after taking off from the lights the car just died, I couldn't get it started again, I got towed home and then a mechanic came out and said there was no spark. He claimed it was either the dizzy or the ignition module. I left it for about 2-3 hours and it started, got around the corner and down the road then it did the exact same thing. Could it be the ECU or maybe just the coil? It just dies, no spluttering at all. Would start when cold and maybe run for 5 minutes then just die, no coughs or splutters. I recently replaced the ignition coil and got an auto electrician to look at it, I'm pretty sure he looked over the fuses but could it be the crank angle sensor in the dizzy or perhaps something else?

[Matt]

Car conking out when warm is usually dizzy related...

Probe the (IGT/IGF can't remember which) when trying to crank to see if a signal is being sent to the ecu.

[timbo]

Maybe the duodenum is acting up.

Do as Matt has said. It is possible that a wire is getting to hot and no longer making contact where it should, this happens with starter motor trigger. I would grab a multimeter and check the continuity of all dizzy wires and all the ignition/coil wires if it that's what you think it is.

Best way to check actually would be to unplug the coil lead from the dizzy and hold it to an earth on the car, the body or motor will do, and see if it arc's, that way you know if the problem is pre or post coil.

edit: Have you just bought this? I'd be hitting up the previous owner!

[Brokenships]

Yeah, my mate went over it with a multimeter and the previous owner is an auto electrician. He came down and went over it, he seemed to think it was the dizzy. It seemed that the ems ignitor was working intermittently so perhaps it could be the IGT or IGF cables. Right from the start I thought the CAS was a possibility from the start. It's just becoming a pain in the ass, I bought it almost 2 months ago and it worked for about 2 weeks...

[timbo]

If you were closer I could take a look, I've also got a smallport.

[Futo_gt86]

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/7/7/7/6/344708.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/515/dodgelookindizzy.jpg/)

This picture here...
I'm no expert by any means but, looks like oil leaking out of the dizzy.
Remove the cap and check it out.
My bigport did this one time, common issue.
Replace the seal and off you go.

Also, is that the ignition module near the extractors?
Might want to move it some place where it won't heat soak so quick..
The wiring looks like it could do with a tidy up, looks like it hasn't been finished off.
Spit tube, heat shield and maybe some exhaust heat wrap.

Nice Pano man, sort her out!

[Brokenships]

Thanks anyway Tim! Yeah, The O rings in the Dizzy would have hardened because of the heat thus causing it to leak. I'll try that tomorrow and see how i go, hopefully it's that simple! I've heat wrapped the extractors and moved the coil away from them when i got it started, but then it wouldn't start so i thought it wasn't earthing properly and so i moved it back and it still didn't start. The wiring is terrible and it's first on my list to do as soon as I get it running. Thanks Ali! It's my first car and my pride and joy. Just pains me to see her not running :(

[Futo_gt86]

Nah, not the coil, the box strapped to the strut tower...is the the EMS ignition module?

The Dizzy O ring is a little more complicated then that, there are some guides on here and toymods on how to replace it.
CLUB4AG
http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=8286
Toymods - same write up, but need to be a member to read
http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/tech-conversions/25735-diy-4age-distributor-rebuild.html
Mark the position of your dizzy, and rotor button before you pull it out.
But yeah, start off by taking the cap off and check out the condition of the rotor button and the terminals inside the cap.

Can you take a picture of the coil for me, show me the earth for it.
In fact check all your earths.

[Brokenships]

I apologize, I didn't read over it properly, yeah that's the ignitor, the coil is right underneath. I've looked through dizzy rebuild threads, it doesn't look too hard, but I may need tools that I don't have. Yeah, I'd do that anyway. I'm in no way a mechanic so you're not insulting me. I would rather get all the advice I can get and if it's too difficult pay to get it done rather than stuff around myself. Everything else seems to be earthed properly, I believe for the coil it's a bracket that it bolts to then that bolts to the strut tower, I have no real good photos of the coil at the moment and it's probably too dark, but i could try if my rather basic description didn't help?

[timbo]

Yeah, dizzt does need a new o-ring. Very simple job, but so important to mark it and put it back in with out jumping any teeth. Don't need any tools other than a 12mm spanner and a pen.

After looking at some of the photos in the sale thread, the dizzy looks like it is maxed out clockwise, could be because it is the only way to get near the right ignition timing. It might have nothing to do with the current issue but it doesn't seem right to me, it should be about half way so you can advance or retard the timing.

I would read up on setting Top Dead Centre, TDC, and take the dizzy out and realign it to TDC with the crank and cams. Easy way to find TDC is to turn the motor clockwise until the notch in the crank pulley lines up with 0 on the timing marks. Take the cam gear cover off and make sure the little dots in them line up with the pressed lines on the back plate, this is TDC. To set the dizzy to TDC you line up the dots on the shaft and housing and carefully put it back in with out moving the teeth.

[Futo_gt86]

Oh hang on, I'm thinking of the stock coil and ignitor....the earth for the ignitor

Where does the EMS ignition module earth to?
Does it earth to a common point on the body or through the EMS ECU? Sorry never played with a EMS before.

[verm69]

hey hey hey!

i'm helping brokenships with this... and can't figure it out for me for the life of me...

this is exactly what is happening. The car will run for a while and then stop... doesn't conk out, just stops dead, no spluttering, just dies. After this happens, the car will NOT start... I fiddle with the coil, check all the wiring, everything is connected correctly. The computer is getting power, the Ignition module is getting power, the wiring from the ECU to the ignition module is all hooked up perfect. Take the lead from the coil to the dizzy, ground it... nothing. When it won't start, I put a test light (screw driver with a light in it) to the connection from the module to the coil, and it stays solid. When the car DOES start (sometimes when warm, sometimes when cold...), the test light will flash, then it starts. We have replaced the coil, checked allllllll the wiring, and it just keeps starting intermitant...

Can anyone confirm weather there should be two connections to the coil??? at the moment, there is a connection from the battery to the coil, and another from the ignition module to the coil... i'm thinking that may not be right??

The timing is a bit off, but it definatly isn't the cause of this issue... like i said, it just DIES... DEAD... running, then nothing...

any clues???

[timbo]

Shouldn't it have a ground?

[Futo_gt86]

hey hey hey!

i'm helping brokenships with this... and can't figure it out for me for the life of me...

this is exactly what is happening. The car will run for a while and then stop... doesn't conk out, just stops dead, no spluttering, just dies. After this happens, the car will NOT start... I fiddle with the coil, check all the wiring, everything is connected correctly. The computer is getting power, the Ignition module is getting power, the wiring from the ECU to the ignition module is all hooked up perfect. Take the lead from the coil to the dizzy, ground it... nothing. When it won't start, I put a test light (screw driver with a light in it) to the connection from the module to the coil, and it stays solid. When the car DOES start (sometimes when warm, sometimes when cold...), the test light will flash, then it starts. We have replaced the coil, checked allllllll the wiring, and it just keeps starting intermitant...

Can anyone confirm weather there should be two connections to the coil??? at the moment, there is a connection from the battery to the coil, and another from the ignition module to the coil... i'm thinking that may not be right??

The timing is a bit off, but it definatly isn't the cause of this issue... like i said, it just DIES... DEAD... running, then nothing...

any clues???

Shouldn't the 12V+ to the coil be 12V ignition, not 12V constant from the battery?
The last Microtech I did said 12V ign on the diagram?
I ran it of a relay with 12V IGN trigger.....
Won't running 12V constant from battery to the coil fubar it?


Shouldn't it have a ground?

The Ignition module should be conected to the -ve side of the coil.

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/3128/emsignmod.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/545/emsignmod.jpg/)

I found this diagram with a quick search on google.
The wire colours may not be the same as yours.
Like, the diagram says 12V, but I believe it should be 12V ign.
Where does the black wire from the IGN module earth to?
Check that earth!
From the pictures it looks like it is attached to a bolt that mounts the module to the strut tower.
Try earthing it to the block as stated in the diagram.

EDIT: I just read a EMS Stinger Wiring Diagram, the 12V to the coils should be 12V ign run through a relay, not 12V constant from battery!

[verm69]

that diagram is how it's setup... the black is def grounded on the ignition module. There was a relay that was setup that we didn't know what it was setup to. I don't think it'll make a diference weather it's throught a relay or not to get it running... we will get it onto a relay when we get it going, but at the moment I dont think i'll matter as long as it has 12v... right?

After talking to EMS, they said that as long as the computer gets the trigger from the CAS then it should run.

i will doube check the ground on the module this arvo... but it's definatly grounded... i'll change it and see if thats the problem

im thiking maybe the CAS is rooted?

[verm69]

ok... Checked the ground on the ignition module, put a new dizzy in with CAS, checked the computer is getting power... STILL NO FCUKING SPARK... i'm stumped. I have tested EVERYTHING

It has petrol, has compression, just no spark and i can't figure it out for the life of me

I'm going to call EMS tomorrow and see if they know any good installers/tuners in south bris to see if they can re-wire/tune it coz i can't figure it fucking out :(

[tuned86]

So it still starts and runs intermittly - effectively can have spark sometimes?

The guage on 12v+ feeding the coil looks decently thick? as well as the grounding cables.

[verm69]

yeah... couldn't even get it going last night. But that is exactly what is happening, it will sometimes spark, won't at all other times.

The guage feeding the coil is definatly thick enough, and the coil is DEF getting power. The ground for the ignition module is standard, so it's good enough (even changed the location to make sure it had good ground) and the engine is grounded from about 3 different points, and the grounds are thick.

Honeslty, the wiring in the car is SHOCKING, so i think it'll be better if it gets re-wired properly anyway. As it is at the moment, i think the wiring will cause isssues even if we do get it going. I could use a good tune as well.

Does anyone know a good tuner/installer in south brisbane???

[FoldKing86]

yeah... couldn't even get it going last night. But that is exactly what is happening, it will sometimes spark, won't at all other times.

The guage feeding the coil is definatly thick enough, and the coil is DEF getting power. The ground for the ignition module is standard, so it's good enough (even changed the location to make sure it had good ground) and the engine is grounded from about 3 different points, and the grounds are thick.

Honeslty, the wiring in the car is SHOCKING, so i think it'll be better if it gets re-wired properly anyway. As it is at the moment, i think the wiring will cause isssues even if we do get it going. I could use a good tune as well.

Does anyone know a good tuner/installer in south brisbane???


Sorry i didnt read the whole thread but another option if not checked is the ecu powering the fuel pump, although rare i have heard for some reason the wiring for the pump can be wrong and the ecu only feeds power to the pump like a cold start type thing for a small amount of time.

[Matt]

He has no spark not a fuel supply issue...

[Futo_gt86]

that diagram is how it's setup... the black is def grounded on the ignition module. There was a relay that was setup that we didn't know what it was setup to. I don't think it'll make a diference weather it's throught a relay or not to get it running... we will get it onto a relay when we get it going, but at the moment I dont think i'll matter as long as it has 12v... right?

After talking to EMS, they said that as long as the computer gets the trigger from the CAS then it should run.

i will doube check the ground on the module this arvo... but it's definatly grounded... i'll change it and see if thats the problem

im thiking maybe the CAS is rooted?

Doesn't running a constant 12V feed to a coil fry it? Like leaveing the ignition on for extended periods of time?
Or am i wrong here? Is that only with points distributors?

Are you just making the contact from coil to the battery while your trying to start it? Or is it hard wired?

[Brokenships]

It's a constant and hard wired connection to the battery, but I've replace the coil with a brand new one. I found out later the previous coil was still working :(

[tuned86]

shooty wiring can certainly do it but yeah, for the long run its probably better to have it all corrected. If you can find someone who would use Yazaki/sumitomo terminals and a proper tool to build looms (recycling or new oem clips) to retain oem proven practices for reliability - but that might be a tough ask.

[pt_y2k]

Even though it defo needs a rewire i think it'd be better to sort the problem first before doing it...ye said ye got a dizzy? I personally think its a CAS signal to ecu problem be it dizzy or wiring or internal ecu fault...when i checked the stinger has power its supposed to,as the coil and ignitor...and i checked the timing and it all lined up perfectly? Step back and think about it,although wiring looks shit,sursprisngly its doing what its supposed to,the coil is good and the ignitor just simply isnt being told what to do by the ecu,which means the dizzy isnt sending a cas signal,and it isnt rare for a 4a dizzy to breakdown intermittently. Im working in the morn if i get finished early il come out and have another go...:)

[pt_y2k]

As regards tuners i Think the guys who wired it and tuned it got it done in Brendale according to the previous owner,although if there wiring skills are anything to go by might not be worth going there!