Ignition Clicks, Car wont start when hot

[djscheppy]

Car - 86

motor / part in question - 4agte (smallport)

problem - no crank.

occurs/started when (if applicable)- can start once or twice, but after engines hot will not crank

The car wouldnt start after i pulled over on the way home a week ago, engine was hot. let it cool down a bit, turn the ignition, hear the fuel pump start up, the ignition click, but no engine cranking over. had to get it towed home.

After about a week, finally found time to look at it again - cranked over on the first try. let it run for a little while, shut it off, and then wouldnt crank again.

Ive done a bit of searching, and I think it might be the starter motor solenoid sticking within the starter motor as soon as the engine gets hot?

Can anyone confirm if this is the problem?

Thanks.

[Vaughn]

Also have the same problem, if out sliding and my 20v starts cooking and i turn it off it takes a couple goes (couple of minutes later) to start back up

[Twisty92]

Car - 86

motor / part in question - 4agte (smallport)

problem - no crank.

occurs/started when (if applicable)- can start once or twice, but after engines hot will not crank

The car wouldnt start after i pulled over on the way home a week ago, engine was hot. let it cool down a bit, turn the ignition, hear the fuel pump start up, the ignition click, but no engine cranking over. had to get it towed home.

After about a week, finally found time to look at it again - cranked over on the first try. let it run for a little while, shut it off, and then wouldnt crank again.

Ive done a bit of searching, and I think it might be the starter motor solenoid sticking within the starter motor as soon as the engine gets hot?

Can anyone confirm if this is the problem?

Thanks.

I'm thinking one of two things
1. bad earthing/loose connections on starter
2. starter on the way out


check voltage drop from the earthing of the starter motor to the negative point on the battery whilst on voltage settings on a multimeter, you will want this to read 0 or very close too

when the starter motor is not turning when the car is hot then you should try tapping the starter solenoid with a hammer to see if this free's it up and starts, if it does this would ,more than likely mean starter fault..

Hope this helps
Twisty

[djscheppy]

I'm thinking one of two things
1. bad earthing/loose connections on starter
2. starter on the way out


check voltage drop from the earthing of the starter motor to the negative point on the battery whilst on voltage settings on a multimeter, you will want this to read 0 or very close too

when the starter motor is not turning when the car is hot then you should try tapping the starter solenoid with a hammer to see if this free's it up and starts, if it does this would ,more than likely mean starter fault..

Hope this helps
Twisty

thanks for the quick replies guys.

yeah, i wish it was a couple of minutes. seems to be the next morning when it will actually crank over again.

I did the crank/negative battery post voltage drop (tapped on to battery post and shell of starter motor) and read 0.00. I also tapped on it with a adj spanner (no room to swing a sledgie around :P)
Ive checked the earthing terminals, both tight - but i might give them a bit of a rub back / clean up to make sure the connections good.

if its a heat issue - anyone know a way to shield it away from the heat of the extractors?

[Twisty92]

More than likely when heat comes into play its gonna make resistence for electrical items,

You could do a set up like a ve starter motor , a springy horse shoe clips over the starter motor and a heat sheild is rivited to the horse shoe. works well for them :) or put heat sheild under the extractors and make brackets up to bolt up to them...

if your game enough when your having this problem is activate the starter motor by itself ( bridge it out) with some decent wire/screwdriver

[lolwat]

4a starters hate heat, heat wrap that shit

[djscheppy]

4a starters hate heat, heat wrap that shit

any recommendations?

[Matt]

You can add a starter relay which helps in allot of cases, but ultimately

send the starter off to golberg for a rebuild...

[jakel]

Exactly as said, once hot usually gives some problems, might be worth getting it recoed or a new one and make a heat shield as well as maybe heat wrap your headers.

[timbo]

Check the positive lead to the starter and make sure the connection is tight. I had huge problems with the battery in the back and a hot starter and virtually could not turn the car off as it would take 30mins to cool down. I ended up encasing the starter with some ACL heat shield, and a piece on the block to stop its radiant heat. I've also got some ducting forcing air up towards that starter and headers, summer in QLD means very, very hot engine bay!

Find out how much to rebuild your starter, there is no point spending big money when you can get them cheap. I bought a brand new Denso reduction starter from Auto Electrics Australia for $198.

[the witzl]

Send the starter off to golberg for a rebuild...


Before going to such hefty expense.... wire in a starter relay!!!
$15 or so worth of parts at Jaycar and about 30 minutes hovering over your engine bay.

Solves 90% of dicky starter motor issues.



Man you guys need to get with the times.
No amount of fiddling with battery terminals and rebuilding starter motors is going to fix the fact that your ignition barrel switch is going on 30 years old and provides more contact resistance than running into a brick wall.
It is the ignition barrel switch that is causing the voltage drop to the starter solenoid - it simply cant carry the required current.


Serisouly - this is the FIRST repair I do to all old cars i play with.

[Matt]

^^^

Yeah do this first, but it normally is a sign of a worn solenoid on the starter too.

$80 for a rebuild on a 4age starter can't be beaten...

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/showthread.php/69957

[the witzl]

What about $10 for a fused relay, plus $5 for a relay base?


http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=SY4077
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=SY4069

[timbo]

I just assumed it would have already been done... And an amount of fiddling can fix things, I would assume anyone would do everything they can before they start spending money, $15 or $80.

But I guarantee that he will still have problems with the starter being too hot. The starter relay worked well for me but ultimately decent shielding was the key.

[djscheppy]

but with the negative resistance crank test the voltmeter showed a 0 drop in resistance. doesnt that mean that it isnt the drop of voltage to the starter?

im up for a cheaper option (and easier, the turbo, exhaust and piping etc is a pain in the a** to get off.....).

how do you wire up what you suggested? (got any photos of your set up?)

[djscheppy]

as said above, in any case, ill get the shielding done anyway so i just dont get stranded again.

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

Two things pull current when you are starting: the starter motor (lots) and the starter solenoid (a bit).

Checking voltage over the battery, or start cable while starting checks the voltage getting to the starter motor. However the voltage to the starter solenoid (basically the signal that tells the starter to turn) runs via the key barrel, and can give issues as described above. Putting a relay on this wire can solve the problem.

On another car (ZJ Firlane cough cough) I had an identical issue which I fixed by pulling the starter, cleaning the solenoid and filing the contacts. Another option you could try.

Hen

PS - That fused relay looks sweet. Two birds with one stone.

[the witzl]

Yeah I thought so too, that's why we sell them at Jaycar now ;)

I'll post up how to wire it tomorrow. It's piss easy

[timbo]

I'm pretty sure this is right:

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/3/1/1/3/401042.jpg

Use a fuse relay? I didn't with mine and I haven't had an issue but it is probably a good idea.

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

That's always the case, things work fine without fuses.... until you get a short somewhere and your loom melts/battery dies/car goes up in flames rather than the fuse blowing.

Not needed, but worth having, and with the fuse and relay in one box like that it makes your wiring no more complex or time consuming.

[_sawyer_]

I fitted a starter motor heat shield from an ls1. It clips on fine but Lock wire it on just to be sure and it should work a treat

[the witzl]

Sorry I didn't reply yesterday, was flat out at work.
Yep that wiring above is right. The wire from the key barrel you want is tje black/white wire which originally goes to the starter solenoid

I'll post more detail if I get a chance over the weekend.

[djscheppy]

Sorry I didn't reply yesterday, was flat out at work.
Yep that wiring above is right. The wire from the key barrel you want is tje black/white wire which originally goes to the starter solenoid

I'll post more detail if I get a chance over the weekend.

thanks for the diagram guys. didnt get a chance to work on it during the weekend though.

will give it a shot during the week - in case i get stuck; can you post more detail so I can refer back to it?

[the witzl]

Easy job this one.


Find the Starter wire that activates the starter solenoid. It will be a black/white wire, around 5-6mm diameter with insulation (its the skinnier of the 2 wires that go to the starter motor).
Find a convenient point, and CUT this wire, making sure to identify which side of the cut goes to the starter, and which side comes from the ignition key barrell.


Using the relay wiring diagram above:
# 30 = 12V+ from battery + terminal
# 87 = the side going to the starter motor of the black/white wire that you cut
# 86 = the other side of the black/white wire that was cut (coming from the ignition key barrell)
# 85 = chassis earth.

Its that simple.

[timbo]

I swear I put up something similar, mustn't have hit post! My last input; depending on the condition of the starter solenoid wire, I ended up replacing mine as it had become brittle and if you going to all this effort it is probably worth checking.

[Damoss]

I wouldn't bother fitting a starter relay untill I was sure that a voltage drop was the problem. Next time it wont start use a screw driver to short out the operating terminal and the power post of the starter solenoid. Make sure car isn't in gear or you'll run yourself over :)

[the witzl]

Dude, its a 30yo car, which now has a starter motor that pulls more current than the original, and an ignition barrell that's had more turns than Courtney Love has had cock.

Trust me, a starter relay will help.

[Matt]

Toyota since the ae101 have had a starter relay... so i'm pretty sure it is a good idea to fit it.

But in a perfect world with good solenoid contacts it shouldn't be required, adding the relay often masks the worn out solenoid contacts , but at least buys you time before the starter totally gives up.

[the witzl]

even with excellent solenoid contact condition, if you have a shitty old ignition barrel key switch, you are still likely to have starter issues - cos the contact resistance of the key barrel swtich will reduce the voltage going to the starter. Add some mechanical "strain" on the solenoid, and you have a starter that could be dicky.


As you identified Matt..... why else would Toyota have added a starter relay to ALL their cars since 1995/96???

[Dori_Dori]

This link should help. Thanks to Sam.
http://s-86.com/s-relay.html

Cheers,

[djscheppy]

27050270512705227053

So this is as far as i have gotten. It seems like hte starter i have fitted isnt a regular 4ag one?
Ive got my replacement and it looks nothing like it.

But back to the relay issue; i picked up the 12v relay and the horn plug as someone suggested; and not sure if I should be cutting and re-hashing these wires to the ones on the plug?
Not even sure i should be doing it on this starter.

[the witzl]

What you have there is the BETTER gear reduction starter motor.
Sam-Q has pictured the old 4AC starter motor.


The gear reduction starter does look pretty close to your dump pipe, so I would definitely be looking at some heat shielding as well as the starter relay.

You dont have to fit the relay exactly as Sam-Q did. In fact in your application i would recommend that you DONT fit the relay next to the starter motor.
Personally, I would recommend to fit the starter relay next to your battery.

So.....

That wire that in your hand here...
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27053&d=1348444073&thumb=1

This is the wire that connects to pin #87 on the relay.
If you can, trace the wire back away from the starter. If it goes near the battery, then this is where we can cut it and wire in the relay. I *think* that on the AE86 this wire comes back up the firewall and across the back of the engine bay to the drivers side..... so maybe it will be easiest to cut the wire close to the starter.

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

I *think* that on the AE86 this wire comes back up the firewall and across the back of the engine bay to the drivers side..... so maybe it will be easiest to cut the wire close to the starter.
Correct. The wire goes nowhere near the battery unfortunately. But you can put your relay elsewhere or extend the wire. No big issue either way.

[timbo]

On what AE86's? Mine went up the loom past battery...

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

Really?, maybe I have it wrong. I thought the wire went up the passenger side of the motor to the firewall, then into the big ugly plug clipped to the firewall.

There could be a difference between 4AC and 4AGE cars since the GE would have the exhaust in the way.

[djscheppy]

if you look at that 2nd photo from the post at the top of this page, the ignition wire goes into the spade connector at the top of the starter, backs around and behind the motor between the block and the firewall.

only the battery power connection goes direct from the battery to the starter.

ive sent this off for a rebuild just to be sure i dont have to change it again for a long time.

can anyone tell me if i should be changing the exhaust gasket now as well while im at it? (and part no. #?)

[Damoss]

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27053&d=1348444073&thumb=1

This is the wire that connects to pin #87 on the relay.
If you can, trace the wire back away from the starter. If it goes near the battery, then this is where we can cut it and wire in the relay.

I find it easier (and neater) to run a 3 core from the relay to the starter solenoid. Simply hook one wire up to the power terminal, one to the operating terminal and one to start wire from ignition switch. Then earth the relay through its mounting bracket.

[timbo]

Might be a difference from Aus to Jap and zenki to kouki.

[djscheppy]

So replace exhaust gasket? Yay or nay?

Is it possible to get one over the counter?

[timbo]

Yeah, do the exhaust manifold gasket as they are one use only (unless metal layer). I went through about 3 ACL gaskets before I bought a 20v metal layer one...