4AGE Bombing Plans - Reasonable?

[nastylilweed]

Hey guys,

I am planning on begining to upgrade my 4AGE in my AE86 Levin and want some advice on a proposed spec list.

Before anyone flames me for posting a will this work thread I have done lots of reading and am just looking for the opinion of those who may know better than me / have more exerience with 4A series engines. Firstly, I am willing to lose some drivability for performance however I don't want an undrivable pig that only makes power after 6 grand. Secondly, yes I am chosing to keep the 16 Valve 4AGE instead of going for a 20V because I like the idea of keeping an era specific engine in it + the old 4A is a rad engine, just outclassed by new technology.

Spec List

HEAD
- 4AGE Bigport Head (3 Angle Valve Job, resealed and smoothed ports, upgraded valve springs etc, decked to raise compression)
- Compression raised to 10.5:1 to 11:1 or so
- Camshafts around the low 290 degree mark
* I have heard Smallport Heads lose their value after upgrading cams to this extent hence going the bigport head. Is this true?

INTAKE & EXHAUST
- 20 Valve Quad Throttle Bodies (Port matched, individual filters, retain 20 Valve TVIS)
- TRD 4-2-1 Extractors

MANAGEMENT
OPTION 1
- It is currently running an APEXI SAFC2 (Will this run the quads and cams this large properly? I have heard mixed reports)

OPTION 2
- Microtech LTX8 or Adaptronic or similar
- Convert to CAS and Individual Coil Packs
* Obviously the better option however if not 100% required I would prefer to keep the original ECU functionality and price

FUEL SYSTEM
- Surge Tank (Recirculated rise pump and 040 or similar pressure pump)
- Standard Injectors (Apparently the current ones have been reconditioned)

BOTTOM END
STANDARD
Am I dreaming to consider that the old 4A bottom end would handle this, obviously with a safeish tune and lack of abuse from a driver perspective?

Are there any major items / conflicts with components that I have overlooked here?

OUTCOME
I would like to think that I could get a reliable 180 - 200 rwhp from this kind of setup. Is that a little far fetched without going to aftermarket pistons/rods and no bottom end balancing work etc

Any helpful input would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Joe

[LittleRedSpirit]

How you gonna retain 20v tvis?

[AJPS]

you would need better pipes unless youre getting genuine TRD pipes

as for the HP estimate, yes,

more like 140-150rwhp

[nastylilweed]

LittleRedSpirit - from my understanding you can retain the 20v TVIS by installing the butterflies with the QTB's (which sit between the throttle bodies and the intake ports?) and running them off the standard ECU, or by setting them up on an AUX port on an aftermarket ECU and setup the RPM that they work at etc. Does that make sense or am I dreaming?

AJPS - I guess I'll have to run with that for the time being, I might do the bottom end and swap the head over at a later stage... And yes there are already genuine TRD pipes on it.

I really want to keep this thing N/A as I have never had a bombed N/A before and I feel like an AE86 should be N/A for some reason... Is there a more effective way of going about making power than what I am suggesting?

[slide86]

Dont run TVIS on an engine like this......it wont work

290 degree cams are going to want some decent tuning, an aftermarket ecu such as adaptronic is what you want. But, you say you want this thing driveable, you will need to rev it to get the most out of cams like that.

A "bombing plan" is what the US are currently doing with regards to the NK issue. I have NFI what you are talking about when you want to "bomb" an engine............

[LittleRedSpirit]

If you want to make 200 hp from a 16v, you will need it to have a lot of lift and duration on the cams. It will be a pig really.

If you want to make a bit less power but have a more useable power curve get a blacktop, drop in some tomei poncams and retain vvt. This will give you a power increase accross the whole rev range. A cammed up 16v to the point where its making that kind of power would be kind of difficult without a purpose built bottom end and a much higher rpm limit. With these small motors it gets to a point where hp potential comes down to how hard you want to rev it. You might be able to get 170hp from what you describe, but at what rpm and for how long. The formula atlantic engines have a service life in hours when making 220-240hp, and thats with 8 grand in crank, rods and pistons alone..

[Ktas]

http://www.billzilla.org/4agmods.htm#220hp

[Delazy]

i could write plenty of the subject...but realistically i dont have to...these blokes have done it for me...but i will say this...

the mod list you have wont get close to 200rwhp...


Dont run TVIS on an engine like this......it wont work

290 degree cams are going to want some decent tuning, an aftermarket ecu such as adaptronic is what you want. But, you say you want this thing driveable, you will need to rev it to get the most out of cams like that.

A "bombing plan" is what the US are currently doing with regards to the NK issue. I have NFI what you are talking about when you want to "bomb" an engine............


If you want to make 200 hp from a 16v, you will need it to have a lot of lift and duration on the cams. It will be a pig really.

If you want to make a bit less power but have a more useable power curve get a blacktop, drop in some tomei poncams and retain vvt. This will give you a power increase accross the whole rev range. A cammed up 16v to the point where its making that kind of power would be kind of difficult without a purpose built bottom end and a much higher rpm limit. With these small motors it gets to a point where hp potential comes down to how hard you want to rev it. You might be able to get 170hp from what you describe, but at what rpm and for how long. The formula atlantic engines have a service life in hours when making 220-240hp, and thats with 8 grand in crank, rods and pistons alone..

[toyotakraze]

From my experience you will make around 140rwhp at the limit of tuning and 115-125 rwhp dialing it back a little for safety. If you want a little more power and drivability maybe consider a 7a bottom end?

[Jip86]

A 7a bottom end would lower the point it makes max power by about 1000rpm, so you dont have to rev it as hard and it makes more torque anyway.

The bigger displacement also makes the cam feel smaller. As in a 4a and a 7a with the same spec cam/everything else the 4a will sound and act grumpier, rev abit harder and be more peaky.

i'd do,
7a block, crank, good rods, smallport pistons, bigport head (3 angle valve job, springs ect), quads, the cams you want, adaptronic and lightweight fly.

My setup is similar except for smallport head and 288 deg cams, its cranky below 3.5k and lacks abit of low end torque but easy to drive around.

Accept you wont make 200rwhp and that a n/a corolla is quick, not fast and you'll reap the rewards of having a tuff sounding little screamer!

[toyotakraze]

A 7a bottom end would lower the point it makes max power by about 1000rpm, so you dont have to rev it as hard and it makes more torque anyway.

The bigger displacement also makes the cam feel smaller. As in a 4a and a 7a with the same spec cam/everything else the 4a will sound and act grumpier, rev abit harder and be more peaky.

i'd do,
7a block, crank, good rods, smallport pistons, bigport head (3 angle valve job, springs ect), quads, the cams you want, adaptronic and lightweight fly.

My setup is similar except for smallport head and 288 deg cams, its cranky below 3.5k and lacks abit of low end torque but easy to drive around.

Accept you wont make 200rwhp and that a n/a corolla is quick, not fast and you'll reap the rewards of having a tuff sounding little screamer!

This guy knows whats up.

also forgot to add consider haltech sprint 500 ecu these are a great unit and will do everything you need and more.

[Matt]

+1 on only running the sprint vs the 1000...

You can also run the adaptronic e420d

[pen15]

if you want a drivable motor get some 272 cams run stock intake manifold invest in a haltech sprint 500 and some bigger injectors get a really good tune otherwise you are wasting your time dont spend heaps of money chasing something that wont be what you want if you chose to go with individual throttles run some 150mm stacks to have a drivable motor

cheers
mat

[Sam-Q]

I set up some quads with 43mm stacks, long filters and 270 cams, the guy said it had really good mid range power.