20v 4A-GE cranks but doesnt start.

[Tore]

As topic title says..

Engine is freshly swapped and I have no prior 20v experience so nothing to relate to.

Car is 1984 AE86 EDM Zenki Levin Coupè.

Specs are:
20v AE111 4AGE
Stock engine
Stock ignition (dizzy cap @ front #sq-engineering)
ITG Air filter.

I`ve connected yellow ECU 12v wire from Tweak`d harness to black-yellow on ignition so it gets switch power.
Tried earthing ECU, checked all earths etc usual newb stuff, no dice

Can feel fuel pump relay (Which I connected feed pump to) click once per crank revolution on starter when I hold the relay in my hand, it just goes click-click-click-click for every revolution on the crank so all is well there (20v ECU only sends power to fuel pump when crankshaft goes around)

Tried running feed pump on separate circuit to build up a more constant flow of fuel but still no dice.

Vid of how it all sounds like when i try to start (For those curious):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pn0oiPxseo

Tried putting distributor @ around 10-15deg as per manual (Whole lot better than 0 deg anyway) but no go.
Double checked all the usual stuff, harness plugs sits tight, connections are good, earths are scraped/polished and tight, 12v power @ terminal is all good, battery got enough juice and so forth, no cigar.

I got no brake booster so large vac-outtakes front and back on the rail is plugged.
EVAP not connected (Tweakdperformance said it wasnt needed so they didnt make a circuit for it) (So I got a hose from EVAP port on rail to charcoal canister)
ISCV is connected, ISCV hoses are nice, tight and shut (And huge air filter for it too) and connector plug has all wires and pins/leads completely intact.
Loosened MAP off its place and laid it so that MAP Vac-hose from between the ITB`s goes straight (To make sure vacuum flow was not interrupted)
Still no party.. >|

Got my act together and checked the plugs, Plugs are dry and shiny clean, no gasoline smell from them.. Injectors not getting pulse from ECU and Coil not sending power to the distributor cap?

Thanks in advance to any input :)

[Matt]

A few questions...

Is your ignitor bolted to the chassis, the actual earthing of these on the 20v is done through the casing. Do you have constant power to the ecu? As well as the ignition power? to the injectors + ignitor? I'll go in detail what to check where.

Identify if it is a lack of spark issue, by removing a lead and seeing if you have it or fuel by (correct way fuel pressure gauge) or remove the return line briefly.

[Tore]

Hi Matt!

Thanks for input :)

Ignitor is not bolted to chassis (Cant get bracket bolt holes lined up with anywhere on chassis and no working drill, my Dremel is RIP too) but theres a earth wire @ the bracket, I connected that to chassis and ziptied the bracket to battery plate (Battery is moved to back of car)
ECU 12v switched power is connected to Black-Yellow at the ignition switch and constant power is connected @ 12v + Terminal as per Dr.Tweak`s instructions (I`m using harness from them, but their customer care is really slow and dont answer most of my questions, so thats frustrating..)
When I used switched circuit for fuel pump I had fuel in return line but now with fuel pump connected to Engine harness FP-relay, the relay engages on/off ronski-speed so fast the pump, from what I hear, cant engage! because relay rides on engine crankshaft revolution I think fuel pressure is rather low!!

Have got a 15YO timing light but obviously cant operate that while starting the car from inside and no-one to help out in person, Old man`s overseas, bro`s busy til 6 then gets called by just about anyone and asked for help with anything from swatting a fly to fixing a computer (Which is usually the person forgetting to plug the wire in), the rest are friends who says they can help if they get to drive the car (The kind of friends who go through cars more often than chewing gum, you know the type.. I wouldnt entrust them with a lawn mower...)

I have got no fancy leds (Xcept from a trashed flashlight) I got no access to high tech hardware to assemble anything of the sort that the pro`s use (Like resistors and stuff, got a bunch of dead TV`s to grab stuff like that from but thats it) and I live in desolate outskirts of Nowhereton and I`m utterly out of cash and cant buy anything, blew this month`s money hoping for a running engine and just when I needed the Toyota legend to come true to give me a engine that runs it goes about-face and decides to throw all the crap @ me and show absolutely no mercy..


I DO have a spare ignitor/coil/ECU-noise assembly though but even if replaced fuel should still get to the chamber? Plugs are still dry..

Sry for frustrating tone in my reply, by no means am I trying to be nasty here! I appreciate and am thankfull to all input :)
Took a few days break from the whole ordeal to recuperate but doesnt seem to be helping..

[Matt]

Bolt the ignitor to one hole on the chassis that'll be enough... And temporarily run the fuel pump constantly.

I get how frustrating it is, so close yet so far.

[pen15]

do you have the fuel lines on backwards just a quick check because 20v and 16v are opposite haha i have seen a few people fuck that one up

[Tore]

Fuel lines are on correctly (In- at back of engine, out at fuel pressure regulator) But thx for the heads up :)
Also, Pen, your BT20v seems to be working really well! Good work with limited parts! (I.e not going all-out)
Though I understand the plan was also to install TRD crank but still, with the parts on it right now those are exactly the kind of numbers you`re supposed to get!
You got one scary-ass mapper there!!

Injectors check out (not below 3 ohms).
Matt, I bolted coil to chassis, still no go.. But still good to have it bolted down so thanks for giving me the incentive to go ahead and bolt it down anyway! :)

[Tore]

I figured out the connection! (lol)

Turned out to be bad ECU earth, was discussing the problem @ the aeu86 forums when someone mentioned ECU earth for what I think was umphteenth time.
From there it went "yeah but its connected at the engine valve cover, what more co... owh.. shait.."
Valve cover is separated from engine head by metal gasket all the way around..

Started up after a couple of tries :)

Now to fix bad timing as it snorks when I apply throttle, so I guess pull it anti clockwise a little more?
And sort out a small water leak (Shitty vendor Volvo radiator has a small water outlet for some reason)

Thx a lot for the help and hints :)

[Matt]

Glad you got it sorted...

[Tore]

Couldnt of been done without cool heads and generations of experience on forums, I`m glad you took your time to answer my plead for help :)

Now I`m having #1 ITB backfire @ startup`s and very boggy revs (Went get past what sounds like 1500-2000rpm), pretty sure there are no vacuum leaks, MAP sensor gets 5 volts and so forth.
Will sort some fuel pipes tommorow, I`m hoping the bogging and the backfire might be because FPR is compensating with too much fuel pressure for return hose leaking a little bit (Enough to wet finger but no dripping), leak is in luggage compartment because of that hard bend there..

[Matt]

Is your alternator charging? < 14v the 20v will bog down and struggle to rev.

[Tore]

Will check that today, if alternator is not charging enough it could be because battery is located in the rear rather than the front so could be some voltage loss!
Or could be alternator belt not tightened enough.
OR could be alternator wiring.

I think the seriously boggy revs and ITB backfire is because I may have overdone the distributor timing :P
I`ll put it all the way back then work my way out!

[Matt]

Make sure you bridge the diagnostic (ecu pins TE and E1) when setting the timing.

[Tore]

Make sure you bridge the diagnostic (ecu pins TE and E1) when setting the timing.

I do have a 2-pin diagnostic plug but never heard you had to bridge that to set the timing?
I adjusted the timing without doing that and the engine seems to be doing just fine?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4YZSvFqCmw

[Matt]

All 4ages need the base timing locked so if can be set. Done by bridging the diagnostic pins.

Have u driven the car yet?

[Tore]

All 4ages need the base timing locked so if can be set. Done by bridging the diagnostic pins.

Have u driven the car yet?

Aaah I see, so I just leave the kill-switch in, then bridge the diagnostic pins and adjust the timing so that the ECU can work from there, didnt know! Thanks for the info man :)

Havent driven the car yet (Oil sludge, low oil pressure) so going to flush the engine, pick up a water temp sender, fill the diff up then take her for a test-drive.

But I`m having trouble getting signal from Tacho, I tried connecting black-orange tacho wire to the black wire on the 12v firewall connector, but still no go, tried connecting it to the grey one too but no cigar.

Another couple of issues is that the clutch slave cylinder seems to be shot (It`s leaking fluid), and the knock sensor @ the block has a completely broken plug, I managed to find a small enough cable shoe to fit around the small metal pin thats still sticking out but if it falls out or breaks off thats going to be bad news..

[LittleRedSpirit]

Google for ae86 tacho mod. Then it will work, its a matter of a about 2 resistors and one cap being swapped on the tacho circuit. I modified the ae86 method for the ke70/ae71 cluster and it works there too. Give it a go, its great seeing a stable, correct reading std tacho.

[Tore]

Google for ae86 tacho mod. Then it will work, its a matter of a about 2 resistors and one cap being swapped on the tacho circuit. I modified the ae86 method for the ke70/ae71 cluster and it works there too. Give it a go, its great seeing a stable, correct reading std tacho.
Ah, I`m not running waste-spark COP :)

[Matt]

You don't need a tacho mod for the 20v into the ae86. Works just fine off the igniter output

[Tore]

You don't need a tacho mod for the 20v into the ae86. Works just fine off the igniter output

Indeed.
I found out that tacho works best if the connector with positive and negative power for the instruments is plugged onto left footwell junction...
But theres still an issue with Tacho showing 200RPM too much, when I turn the engine off its left at the 200 mark as well :P

Getting a bit more confident about leaving the kill-switch on so I adjusted the timing a little bit more, but I`m uncertain about one thing..
Should I leave the diagnostics bridged when starting the engine after adjusting the timing?

[pen15]

check the timing again cams and crank my friend had this same issue it slipped 1 tooth on the crank pulley and i realized it was super dohey

and yeah my motor is going well i just finished my w5x gearbox conversion and the motor is going strong but its getting anew bottomend soon and a garret 3076

[LittleRedSpirit]

Does the ae86 have a tacho baord with a variable resistor like a ke70? If so you may just be able to tune the 200rpm down a bit. I can tune the ke70 one with the resistor.

[Tore]

check the timing again cams and crank my friend had this same issue it slipped 1 tooth on the crank pulley and i realized it was super dohey

and yeah my motor is going well i just finished my w5x gearbox conversion and the motor is going strong but its getting anew bottomend soon and a garret 3076

I`ll check the timing immediately, it was good when assembled but could be that it is a tooth or two off indeed!
Well I guess a turbo`d 4AGE is better than some SR20 swap :)

On a side note I finished swapping out the old vendor Volvo radiator with a really beefy Mishimoto I got for cheaps from another AE86 drifter here in Norway (He`s converting to F20C)
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7297/8730008486_81895a14f9_b.jpg
I also managed to install OEM water temp sender in the small front head outlet that I bought of sam (Though there was a 2mm diameter difference) Darn it feels good to know that I got the cooling as OEM ae86 as it could possibly get with the 20v, exactly as planned! (Plans and reality seldom diverge in projects like these)

I`m still pondering on why the oil pressure is so low, but it could be the cheap mineral 10W40 oil and the oil sludge in the engine so I`m simply hoping for the best!!

Hey, Matt, I know I`m nagging but I have to ask once more..
Do I leave the diagnostics bridged when starting up the engine after adjusting the timing? :)

Edit: I checked belt-timing and it is as when I assembled it: Dead on!! At least I did something right the first time :)

[Tore]

Alright, things are getting better, I flushed the engine oil twice, now almost all oil-sludge is out of the engine.
Going to get some good engine oil tomorrow (Found that the Castrol I already bought was for 4 stroke bikes...)

The reason the oil pressure is not reading right, from what I read, is because 20v oil pressure sender is not compatible with AE86, so I installed the 16v AE86 sender while engine was out of oil anyway.

Still annoyed at the tachometer being off by 200rpm (Shows more rpm than the engines got) and settles at 200rpm when engine is actually off, going to look for bad grounds tommorow to be sure though.

Anyhows this thread has more than answered the original question about non-cranking 20v, so I guess it can be laid dead now..

Thanks a lot for all the help so far! Couldnt have come this far without combined experience at forums :)

[LittleRedSpirit]

This might seem too obvious to be smart or possible but can you just remove the clear cover and push the needle back 200rpm when the car is off? Maybe you've just spun it somehow. I'm not certain it will work but it might be possible.

[Matt]

You unbridge it once you are happy with the timing.. This is called "base" timing where the ecu doesn't advance it

[Tore]

You unbridge it once you are happy with the timing.. This is called "base" timing where the ecu doesn't advance it

Thats exactly what I did, it seems to be running just about perfect when warm now, steady and nice idle at (I think) 1000-1100 rpm :)

LittleRedSpirit, I`ll try figuring out how to get the clear cover off and see if I cant get her to settle the heck down hehe.

Edit: Couldnt get the cover off (Managed to crack it despite being careful) but lirked a screw driver in there and got the tacho ok I think.

Still got a problem when throttling it up to 2000rpm to check if theres any knocking sounds (Of which there are none, thank god), suddenly engine decides to go full blast and keeps revving up all the way even if I release gas pedal!! :S
Thank god I`m ready at the ignition key..
This is kind of abunai..


I also changed the oil pressure switch with the one from the 16v, and still the oil pressure gauge acts up, I switch ignition on one step and oil pressure gauge goes all the way up to full then whips around a little bit and goes back to below zero... Still happens when I pluck the wire off the firewall connector and plug it directly onto the oil pressure switch too.. Dafuq :S

Pretty sure I wont be getting any more 20v`s, they seem to be flimsy as heck..

I checked timing again and it`s all perfectly lined up (Crank pulley at TDC, Cams at TDC) but it still feels boggy.