Best shocks?

[willacy70]

Hi guys,

this question has been asked a million times before and i have done some research but no one has really provided a straight answer. I have a set of 4.5kg ajps springs, 245 mm free height. What is the best shock to go with this spring? I am looking at buying some kyb's, part number 343113 which are for vb-vp commodore wagons. compressed length is 290 and extended length is 485 if that helps anything. Has anyone else has experience with the same or similar setup?

cheers

matt

[Matt]

I've ran kyb's in my cars and rate them for what they are.

GSL / AJPS can get them for you.

[Jacobxxx]

I ran those springs with sierra shocks for a while, decent set up also.

Can't go past HTS or TRD Blue though if you can afford some!

[skizzamods]

There probably is no straight answer because there are plenty of good products to choose from.

Excel G's and 4.5kg @ 245mm is okay, not ideal, but it will get the job done.
Really, there are better products on the market, but it depends how much you are spending..

[Slimer86]

Bilstein, end of story
Ajps for hook ups

[Matt]

Really comes down to how much you want to spend

[Vance]

had tokico hts 102 front and rear in my last ae86.

HIGHLY OVER-RATED


if i was to do another ae86 i would go adjustable kyb

[AJPS]

thanks for the words guys

for 80 bucks a shock excel gs will hold up and end and plenty have done good things with them

4.5kg is about their limit, theyre quite acceptable with a 3.5kg spring

if youre doing some more serious things then consider bilsteins at triple the price - but currently working on getting the price down

i still think youre better off spending more on dampers than anything else really

i can have the bilsteins revalved as well

[skizzamods]

I agree with Lawson, Bilstein in the ideal world, but excel g will get you driving.

[corollaart]

If you have plenty of money and want the best ring murray coote at MCA.

Not many can match his no how.

[AJPS]

If you have plenty of money and want the best ring murray coote at MCA.

Not many can match his no how.

agree with that also, basically shocks are limited by your budget

but the law of diminishing returns applies

[Vance]

honestly im all for adjust-ability when it comes to suspension. what one person prefers will differ to the next.

skip until the *** if not a suspension nerd or dont have the budget for a perfect suspension setup.



i believe in an ideal world 3-way adjustable shocks and spring compression set only to hold vehicle weight and ride height is the preferred method. just like decent suspension on a motorbike. expensive as all fuck though, especially for an ae86.


shock rebound must be set to spring compression, therefore a certain shock is only good for a per-determined spring compression. it is so hard to get right without adjust-ability on a shock level, and if it only has 1-way adjust-ability, you will always be compromising something, that being bounciness in cornering or harshness when on rough surfaces or feeling too sloppy.

it a shock is 3 way adjustable:
bouncy in cornering, reduce rebound (always have rebound as high as possible but not bouncy when cornering)
harsh when on a rough surface/hitting bums, reduce high speed compression (always have as low as possible but raise if bouncy when not cornering)
feels sloppy, raise low speed compression (low speed compression is also adjusted by spring rate. have the softest springs possible for set vehicle weight to have true adjust-ability in this regard). you must always adjust rebound AFTER adjusting low speed compression (and not the other way around).


some of the shelf setups have it "just right" for certain situations, others dont. i know myself now to get something completely adjustable so i dont end up buying and selling different setups to find one that suits me.



***
or just buy something someone else has already sorted out. in all honesty i think you cant go wrong with slightly softer spring rates and 1-way adjustable shocks. adjust the shocks to suit the springs (as hard as possible without bounciness in cornering is the way to adjust 1-way adjustable shocks), dont set them too hard. or if you have the cash buy some revalved bilsteins with matched springs. its a very good all round setup.

[willacy70]

thanks for the input everyone. Being a uni student, I have a really tight budget so im just looking at something that will Value for money atm. I plan on upgrading once money permits but for now im just working with what i've got.

[Admiral Ackbar]

honestly im all for adjust-ability when it comes to suspension. what one person prefers will differ to the next.



Adjusting shocks without a dyno is like asking a blind man to adjust the focus on your camera - you are just fiddling in the dark.

[timbo]

had tokico hts 102 front and rear in my last ae86.

HIGHLY OVER-RATED


if i was to do another ae86 i would go adjustable kyb

Ha! I really like mine! It probably doesn't have a real linear adjustment range but seem well suited to the car. Also have TRD blue 8ways in the rear which are the KYB type, excellent shock.

[Matt]

was rav 4 springs / kyb an option people used to run?

[Konakid]

kyb are good bang for buck. Bilstein are probably as much as you need on a street/weekend track car.

[luke20]

I've got base height and dampening adjustable Section Spec Silkroads in the back of my 86 with a 6kg sping. They are amazing. Highly rate them!!

[Jimmee1990]

I had a similar setup in my last 86, 4.5kg front springs and cut standard rear springs with kybs and cusco camber tops. Wasn't as fast as my car is now with the shockworks, but was just as fun. Still passed lots of supposedly mega setups in the hills.

[mcBen]

Who's tried trd greens

Sent from my LG-P990 using Motorculture mobile app

[Slimer86]

I've got them on rear. Feel alright with trd springs, but might be a little soft for my liking in comparison to bilsteins in the rear of my other sprinter.

[Vance]

Adjusting shocks without a dyno is like asking a blind man to adjust the focus on your camera - you are just fiddling in the dark.

ATTENTION EVERYONE! DO NOT TOUCH YOUR SHOCKS YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!



completely horrible and inapplicable illustration. a blind man will never see how a camera is adjusted no matter how much he does it.

you can feel the difference when adjusting shocks, spring rates and a hell of a lot of other things. if i was to slap or punch you in the face would you need a computer with a graphical reading to tell you there is a difference?

[Admiral Ackbar]

ATTENTION EVERYONE! DO NOT TOUCH YOUR SHOCKS YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!



completely horrible and inapplicable illustration. a blind man will never see how a camera is adjusted no matter how much he does it.

you can feel the difference when adjusting shocks, spring rates and a hell of a lot of other things. if i was to slap or punch you in the face would you need a computer with a graphical reading to tell you there is a difference?

Sorry, I forgot this is a kid's forum.

So you have a shitty adjustable damper (most of them really are shitty), and you twiddle the knob and find the setting you like best. Good for you. If you are only interested in ride comfort then that is fairly easy to judge. However if you are interested in performance then there are a number of potential pitfalls:
- many amateur drivers cannot drive consistently enough to judge damper changes against the stopwatch, let alone by "feel".
- many amateur drivers will compensate for or mask damper changes unconciously.
- most dampers are single adjustable, so adjust rebound only. Suspension both compresses and rebounds, and the proportion of bump to droop damping is important.
- most cheap dampers do not have linear adjustment. A 8 step adjuster may change damping force in steps such as 50N, 150N, 200N, 240N, 270N, 290N, 300N, 310N. You decide the softest setting (50N) is too soft, 3rd softest setting (200N) is definitely too hard, so you settle for the second softest setting (150N). Unless you have had the damper dyno'd you will have no idea that second softest is 3 times stiffer than the softest setting! And the fact that somewhere between those two may be ideal.
- none of the settings on your damper may be suitable for your car, so you may think the problem lies with your springs or ARBs and change them instead.
- your dampers may have linear valving, as opposed to digressive valving. Linear valving will always be shit compared to digressive valving for both road and race applications.
- the location of the digressive blow-off point may be totally wrong for your car, making low (damper piston) speed valving too soft or too hard, and high speed valving the opposite.
- quality control on cheap adjustable dampers is piss poor, it's possible you'll end up with different damper curves for your left and right shocks when the adjusters are set the same...

If you fit adjustable dampers to your car, you may be able to select the most suitable of the settings available. You will have no idea if they are even close to ideal for your car unless you get them dyno'd.

[Matt]

For the average punter a new shock will be 5000x better than he old worn out ones. Suspension changes are often a placebo affect in yes that feels better but in reality isn't

The original post was can someone help me find a good budget bang for buck shock.

[Vance]

Sorry, I forgot this is a kid's forum.

So you have a shitty adjustable damper (most of them really are shitty), and you twiddle the knob and find the setting you like best. Good for you. If you are only interested in ride comfort then that is fairly easy to judge. However if you are interested in performance then there are a number of potential pitfalls:
- many amateur drivers cannot drive consistently enough to judge damper changes against the stopwatch, let alone by "feel".
- many amateur drivers will compensate for or mask damper changes unconciously.
- most dampers are single adjustable, so adjust rebound only. Suspension both compresses and rebounds, and the proportion of bump to droop damping is important.
- most cheap dampers do not have linear adjustment. A 8 step adjuster may change damping force in steps such as 50N, 150N, 200N, 240N, 270N, 290N, 300N, 310N. You decide the softest setting (50N) is too soft, 3rd softest setting (200N) is definitely too hard, so you settle for the second softest setting (150N). Unless you have had the damper dyno'd you will have no idea that second softest is 3 times stiffer than the softest setting! And the fact that somewhere between those two may be ideal.
- none of the settings on your damper may be suitable for your car, so you may think the problem lies with your springs or ARBs and change them instead.
- your dampers may have linear valving, as opposed to digressive valving. Linear valving will always be shit compared to digressive valving for both road and race applications.
- the location of the digressive blow-off point may be totally wrong for your car, making low (damper piston) speed valving too soft or too hard, and high speed valving the opposite.
- quality control on cheap adjustable dampers is piss poor, it's possible you'll end up with different damper curves for your left and right shocks when the adjusters are set the same...

If you fit adjustable dampers to your car, you may be able to select the most suitable of the settings available. You will have no idea if they are even close to ideal for your car unless you get them dyno'd.

so i point out your arrogance and you begin your reply with another completely arrogant comment....

you then continue to show your arrogance by simply stating unnecessary facts under the arrogant assumption that people have no idea about the mechanics, mathematics or engineering behind what our suspension is doing.

as matt said this thread was initially about bang for buck. not everyone has the time, money and patience to be able to sit on a suspension dyno for a day and revalving their shocks time and again to get them setup right, let alone the patience to.

[tottacrolla]

Sorry, I forgot this is a kid's forum.

So you have a shitty adjustable damper (most of them really are shitty), and you twiddle the knob and find the setting you like best. Good for you. If you are only interested in ride comfort then that is fairly easy to judge. However if you are interested in performance then there are a number of potential pitfalls:
- many amateur drivers cannot drive consistently enough to judge damper changes against the stopwatch, let alone by "feel".
- many amateur drivers will compensate for or mask damper changes unconciously.
- most dampers are single adjustable, so adjust rebound only. Suspension both compresses and rebounds, and the proportion of bump to droop damping is important.
- most cheap dampers do not have linear adjustment. A 8 step adjuster may change damping force in steps such as 50N, 150N, 200N, 240N, 270N, 290N, 300N, 310N. You decide the softest setting (50N) is too soft, 3rd softest setting (200N) is definitely too hard, so you settle for the second softest setting (150N). Unless you have had the damper dyno'd you will have no idea that second softest is 3 times stiffer than the softest setting! And the fact that somewhere between those two may be ideal.
- none of the settings on your damper may be suitable for your car, so you may think the problem lies with your springs or ARBs and change them instead.
- your dampers may have linear valving, as opposed to digressive valving. Linear valving will always be shit compared to digressive valving for both road and race applications.
- the location of the digressive blow-off point may be totally wrong for your car, making low (damper piston) speed valving too soft or too hard, and high speed valving the opposite.
- quality control on cheap adjustable dampers is piss poor, it's possible you'll end up with different damper curves for your left and right shocks when the adjusters are set the same...

If you fit adjustable dampers to your car, you may be able to select the most suitable of the settings available. You will have no idea if they are even close to ideal for your car unless you get them dyno'd.

Much to be learned from this post.
But how do you know what setting you are looking for on the dyno without testing the dampers on the track ?

[Admiral Ackbar]

so i point out your arrogance and you begin your reply with another completely arrogant comment....

you then continue to show your arrogance by simply stating unnecessary facts under the arrogant assumption that people have no idea about the mechanics, mathematics or engineering behind what our suspension is doing.

as matt said this thread was initially about bang for buck. not everyone has the time, money and patience to be able to sit on a suspension dyno for a day and revalving their shocks time and again to get them setup right, let alone the patience to.

The point of my posts in this thread is that adjustable dampers are not the panacea that most people think they are. If the OP wants a good budget shock, then my advice is to get a non-adjustable monotube with digressive valving i.e. Bilstein.

Adjusing dampers without dynoing them is like mapping an EFI engine from scratch without any numbers - no lambda, no exhaust pyro (is that a beter analogy for you?). Would anybody attempt to do such a thing? Isn't your suspension also important?



Much to be learned from this post.
But how do you know what setting you are looking for on the dyno without testing the dampers on the track ?

Car suspension is an example of damped simple harmonic motion. If you remove the damper, the suspension will oscillate with a natural frequency. You can calculate this frequency if you know the sprung weight, unsprung weight and the spring rate. Once you know this you can calculate the force required to provide critical damping. Critical damping occurs when the oscillation stops in the shortest possible time. This may sound good but practice has shown this is too stiff, even for pure race cars, so supension tuners aim for a damping force which is between 35% and 60% of the critical damping force. The tuner will make an estimate based on the type of car, driver experience, tracks/surfaces that will be raced on etc. This is well and truly in the ballpark compared to some aftermarket dampers which can go as high as 300% of critical damping.

After track testing the driver or suspension guru may decide that more or less damping is required. They may decide to try 10% more low speed rebound damping at the rear for example. If they have adjustable dampers they will refer to the dyno plots to find which setting gives them 10% more damping force. If the dampers they have don't have the adjustment required, they will have to revalve, which is a bit of a black art and can be hit and miss. After rebuilding the dampers with different pistons/shims/oil weight/nitrogen pressure/needle profiles and seat profiles, the dampers are dyno'd at each setting to make sure they are giving the damping forces they want. This is why race teams have mobile dynos.

Simple harmonic motion and damping is usually covered in first year uni physics. A 5 second google found this for anyone who is interested: http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-03sc-differential-equations-fall-2011/unit-ii-second-order-constant-coefficient-linear-equations/damped-harmonic-oscillators/MIT18_03SCF11_s13_2text.pdf

[dove grey 64]

The point of my posts in this thread is that adjustable dampers are not the panacea that most people think they are. If the OP wants a good budget shock, then my advice is to get a non-adjustable monotube with digressive valving i.e. Bilstein.

Adjusing dampers without dynoing them is like mapping an EFI engine from scratch without any numbers - no lambda, no exhaust pyro (is that a beter analogy for you?). Would anybody attempt to do such a thing? Isn't your suspension also important?




Car suspension is an example of damped simple harmonic motion. If you remove the damper, the suspension will oscillate with a natural frequency. You can calculate this frequency if you know the sprung weight, unsprung weight and the spring rate. Once you know this you can calculate the force required to provide critical damping. Critical damping occurs when the oscillation stops in the shortest possible time. This may sound good but practice has shown this is too stiff, even for pure race cars, so supension tuners aim for a damping force which is between 35% and 60% of the critical damping force. The tuner will make an estimate based on the type of car, driver experience, tracks/surfaces that will be raced on etc. This is well and truly in the ballpark compared to some aftermarket dampers which can go as high as 300% of critical damping.

After track testing the driver or suspension guru may decide that more or less damping is required. They may decide to try 10% more low speed rebound damping at the rear for example. If they have adjustable dampers they will refer to the dyno plots to find which setting gives them 10% more damping force. If the dampers they have don't have the adjustment required, they will have to revalve, which is a bit of a black art and can be hit and miss. After rebuilding the dampers with different pistons/shims/oil weight/nitrogen pressure/needle profiles and seat profiles, the dampers are dyno'd at each setting to make sure they are giving the damping forces they want. This is why race teams have mobile dynos.

Simple harmonic motion and damping is usually covered in first year uni physics. A 5 second google found this for anyone who is interested: http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-03sc-differential-equations-fall-2011/unit-ii-second-order-constant-coefficient-linear-equations/damped-harmonic-oscillators/MIT18_03SCF11_s13_2text.pdf

this all sounds true, brett and chris at shockworks have told me all about it and shown me it in person with the revalving and the dynoing etc but its all to complicated for me :rolleyes:.

[tottacrolla]

Very interesting.
Do you think then Joel that the likes of Bilstein and TRD will have done most of the initial calculations and dynos to get their dampers into a ball park figure and that matching their springs to their dampers is going to be an improvement over standard suspension ?

[Konakid]

This guy is right, without a dyno you cant have much idea what you are doing.

Unless you are racing your car and aiming for times in competition, Bilsteins will be good enough for your needs that AJPS offers. I been in his car with them (beams AE71) and its very good at soaking up bumps at speed. I have since bought bilstein rears for my Corona and im very happy with them will be getting fronts asap too.

[Admiral Ackbar]

tottacrolla:

I know this about Bilstein B6 and B8:
- they have digressive valving
- the digressive blow off point is in the right place for performance street/circuit racing use
- the ratio of compression to rebound damping is good
- B6 has good damping rates for the standard spring rates in the cars they are designed for
- B8 has good damping rates for slightly stiffer springs in the cars they are designed for
- the build quality is outstanding, the cheapest Bilsteins have the same pistons as their offroad racing dampers
- the quality control is very good

If you go for dampers from a slightly heavier car (AE92, SW20), then they will be in the ballpark for aftermarket springs, as long as you don't go more than 6/4.

As someone said earlier, just about any new oem dampers will be better than old worn out ones. Even budget Gabriel ones will be better than worn out 20 year old dampers.

I have no experience with TRD sorry.

[willacy70]

I ended up getting a set of trd blues. I put the springs in for a little bit with the original monroe shocks that were in the car and after testing it out with different springs i felt a marked improvement over the shitty king springs that were in it. I assumed that anything was going to be an improvement over what was in the car and im happy with my purchases so far. For the money i cant complain. It might not be to everyone's taste but im not really experienced enough to judge weather my choice is good or not.