still have this starting problem

[deanoo]

alrightt... when i turn the key to start the motor sometimes it starts advanced or retarted and sometimes it also cranks over and just stops like the battery is dead....

got no idea what it is.. can someone please help???

[keiichi]

make sure your vacuum advance leads are all properly attached and not blocked. also make sure there is no corosion or anything out of the ordinary on you battery and alternator leads. get your ignition timing checked get it set a few degrees advanced.

that might be the case anyway

[riceburner]

Once you have tried all other options given (check battery terminals etc etc), try the Key Way on the crank.

My bet is it slipping and causing advanced/retarded starting, as in the crank is turning but key way slipping is stopping the timing belt from turning, and cause it out of alignment it wont continue to run.

Given on what you discribed i would start there.

Oh and if battery problems are present, unlikely that would cause retarded/advanced starting. But it wont hurt to look a every point of the starting area.

does the motor sound chocked when cranking.

[86sp]

Whats advanced or retarded? The timing? The keyway cant slip, if it does your gona be having more than starting issues.
If its happening when the motor is hot it could just be excessive resistance caused by the heat.

[deanoo]

i have checked battery earth leads etc... timing belt is brand new its not slipping, the dizzy is set perfect
it could be the computer sending wrong spark

[riceburner]

Whats advanced or retarded? The timing? The keyway cant slip, if it does your gona be having more than starting issues.
If its happening when the motor is hot it could just be excessive resistance caused by the heat.[/b]


Um yes the key way can and it will slip if its buggered. New timing belt doesnt mean the keyway wont slip. Does the motor work at all, like is it only hard to start but runs fine otherwise!

Computer is only as smart as you tell it to be and even then it has restrictions. ECU isnt sending the wrong spark unless your forcing it too.

[keiichi]

does it sometimes backfire when it eventually starts?

[deanoo]

yes the motor runs fine when it starts proply... sometime is backfires and also reverse starts

its mostly does it when its hot....2day was the worst in this hot weather does any1 know what this is?? its snapping me

[deanoo]

could be the coil or something similiar??

[riceburner]

Tell me how a starter motor allows a reverse start.

[ke70dave]

reverse start? thats an interesting....er..thing to happen, can you evaluate on this?

[deanoo]

alright.. i start the motor and it cranks over normally for 1second and then cranks over the other way all of a sudden...

[spoon]

my car did that - if the problem is on a 4age(like mine) you probably have a 4ac starter - fix it by fitting a 4age starter motor... if it already is its probably worn out

[riceburner]

Got me buggered. Starter motor only spins one way, stuffed if i know how it can "cranks over the other way all of a sudden..."

Dude do you have your firing order the right way. I guess you would have other wise it wouldnt run normally majpority of the time.

Time for an auto electrician me thinks.

[deanoo]

hmmm ill try the starter motor... i hav asked a guy that does car computers and he goes it could be the computer...

[riceburner]

hmmm ill try the starter motor... i hav asked a guy that does car computers and he goes it could be the computer...[/b]


Beg, borrow, steal another ecu and try it. For a problem that comes and goes like this is really strange. Definatley not something i have ever heard of before.

[riceburner]

Is it possible the reverse you see is not reverse start but reverse cranking when you stop the starter motor.

You know what i mean, as in trying to start then stopping and as you stop the motor reverses it self

[deanoo]

im not quite sure what u r tryin to say.... but u can see the motor turn the other way around... u see the crank turn right as normal and then go the opposite way... its wierdd but ill try a computer first ive got a feeling i blew something in the computer and its not sending the right spark msg

[spoon]

its only goin backwards (from what i can see) because the starter cant turn the engine over all the way because of lack of torque, and the compression in the engine springs it back - so doesnt "crank" backwards - only stops cranking... doubt it'd be the computer, but i can almost gaurantee its the starter - or wiring to the starter. it also could be cos your timing belt has skipped a tooth - take your timing belt cover off and see if you can get all the marks to line up - probably cheaper to check this first than changing the starter!

[ke70dave]

interesting...sounds to me like its not actually the starter motor making it go the other way and the only other thing that could do it is combustion..

im goin to go out on a limb, could it be that your timing is sooo far advanced that it fires sooo much before top dead centre that it actually forces the piston back down where it came from????

another idea is that maybe there is a sharp edge in your combustion chamber that gets hot and acts like a spark plug and pre ignites the mixture. (this happends in my dads car and causes pinging, apparently its a defect in that particular engine)

you said it happends when its really hot? then the pre-ignition by a sharp edge is possible

[deanoo]

the timing belt is perfect i have checked it... people r tellin me the motor is building up petrol and when i try to crank it thers that much fuel that it wont let it crank.... i dont know whats causing that..could b a fuel problem

ohh yee just to add it started when i filled up at a servo and has kept doing it since

[deanoo]

how do i fix this pre-ignition by a sharp edge??? if thats the problem

[ke70dave]

how do i fix this pre-ignition by a sharp edge??? if thats the problem[/b]


usualy fixed by getting a dremel in there and getting rid of that edge...but i doubt its that anyway, cuase i have hardly ever heard of it happenng, but i cant think of any other reason for it to crank the other way............

and that thing about too much fuel buliding up, thast called hydraulic lock, you need ALOT of fuel for hydraulic lock (you have to fill the space between the top of pison and top of head with petrol) and you will start breaking conrods with hydraulic lock

have you emptied out the tank and got different/better fuel?

edit: unplug the spark plug leads and try and crank it over. that will see if its the uberly advanced spark forcing the reverse cranking. then take out the plugs and this will test the hydraulic lock theory.

[deanoo]

ohh okk.. coz somtimes i crank it and it locks..nop i havnt tryd empting the tank but i have tryd different fuel

[deanoo]

anyone know whats goin on???

[ke70dave]

did you try taking out the spark plugs, to get rid of compression, and see if it still goes the other way?

[deanoo]

ohh shitt na i havnt.. i didnt read that part u wrote ill try it

[deanoo]

ok i tested it with the spark plugs leads off and it cranks over normally.... i cant take the plugs out coz i dont have the tools with me...

but when i put the leads back on the problem started again

[ke70dave]

have you cheked your ignition timing? (not cam timing, ie not anythign to do with timing belt)

[deanoo]

umm do u mean the position of the dizzy????

anyway i did check my timing belt its all lined up.. didnt skip a tooth

[ke70dave]

yepp positiong of the dizzy, you will need a timing light to check it, i think 4age is suposed to be like 14deg BTDC

also heres somethign else to try, pull off the vacume advance off the dizzy, then try cranking it over with the plugs connected

[deanoo]

hmmm my dizzy is set a 10deg at the moment...

what u mean by the vacume advance off the dizzy??

r u located in sydney??? ill bring the car round if u r

[ke70dave]

10 deg eh, thats 10 deg at idle yeah? (btw how did you set this if you cant get it started??)

there is a pipe hooked up to the dizzy and it advances the timing as engine revs/load goes up. i wonder if its possible that the advance line is hooked up wrong or something so that some how its advancing when its cranking

[ke70dave]

nah im in brissi, currenty sitting in the university library procrastinating about my fluiddynamics exam that i have tomorow http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tdn.gif

[deanoo]

lol naa the car starts and runs mad only when it starts proply..
sumtimes when its starts it advances and retarts itself and sometimes locks... its weird

i havnt seen any hose goin to the dizzy

[keiichi]

i really really think you have a vacuum block somewhere... maybe

how do you know that it retards and advances when you start it?

[deanoo]

timing gun and you can also hear it

[deanoo]

does anyone reckon it could be the top dead centre?? not been in the right position??

[ke70dave]

nah man cause you say it runs well when it runs, it HAS to be something to do with your ignition timing on startup, casue you said it stopped doin funny things when you unplugged the spark plugs. check everythign to do with ignitino timing, forget about anythign to do with timing belts and top dead cetres, cause if these were a problem it prolly wouldnt run at all.

stab in the dark, did you bridge those 2 pins on the ECU plug thingy in the engine bay (not sure what its called), but you gota do this to set your base timing otherwise the ecu doesnt know yout changed it. im pretty sure thats the go.

when i get home ill check the 4age manual

[riceburner]

4ag is electronic advance, vacumm advance is for carby pieces of shit.

Im still stuck on why this problem comes and goes. Just doesnt make sense.

I bet its real simple too.

[riceburner]

Is it possible that one of the coil pick ups inside the dizzy is playing up.

My motor although runs all the time has a tendacie to run rough everyso often.

Ive been told to replace the dizzy, and thats the only reason i can think of.

Try a different dizzy.

[deanoo]

i have tryd a different dizzy..... anyway i think i found the problem... i put it 2 top end centre or wateva u call it and i opened the dizzy cap and the rotor button was facing pistion 4....

done all the bullshit bla bla bla finally lined it all up and it started... its still doin it like every 6th go but better then last time.. and i cant check the timing coz i dont have the timing light to do it

so im hoping that this is the problem...... any1 else reckon thats the problem???

[Orange hachi]

i have tryd a different dizzy..... anyway i think i found the problem... i put it 2 top end centre or wateva u call it and i opened the dizzy cap and the rotor button was facing pistion 4....

done all the bullshit bla bla bla finally lined it all up and it started... its still doin it like every 6th go but better then last time.. and i cant check the timing coz i dont have the timing light to do it

so im hoping that this is the problem...... any1 else reckon thats the problem???[/b]
ur car has a ghost in it dean

[deanoo]

i reckon its homo... does any1 else have any suggestions???

[keiichi]

4ag is electronic advance, vacumm advance is for carby pieces of shit.

Im still stuck on why this problem comes and goes. Just doesnt make sense.

I bet its real simple too.[/b]

dude my car is vacuum advanced and is a fully electronic fuel 1njectorz

[ke70dave]

wooot!! for a second there i thought i had been talking crap the whole time, cheers keichi http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif

im totally out of ideas on your car man, its weird as

[deanoo]

tell me more about this vacum thing

[ke70dave]

basically, if your engine was running at the same rpm and under the same load all the time. then you could just set the ignition timing and be done with it. but car engins load/revs change heaps so the ingition timing has to be adjusted. more load/revs = need advanced timing.

now for vacume advance, if you have vacume advance, then there will be a vacume line on your dizzy, which is attached to your intake somewhere. so when the engine revs/loads up vacume is created and is fed to your dizzy. the vacume pulls the inside of your dizzy around, and advances the timing.

its hard to explain, but if you have vac advance, pull off your dizzy cap, pull off that hose and suck on it and you'll see the insides of your dizzy rotating around. its pretty much the same as adjusting your timing except that it its contunally chaning.. and it springs back to normal with no vacume.

newer cars use an electronic advance, which i have no idea about, but i think it has somethign to do with a crankangle sensor and its all controlled by computer's

sorry if thats a little dumbed down, im not sure how much you know about this stuff

hope this helps

[ke70dave]

ohh and another thing

i was working on my STUPID 4KC today (see my thread in tech Q's) and i advanced my timing waaaaayyy too much, and managed to get what you have, i got the engine to spin the wrong way on cranking (only slightly) was cool to see thats for sure!

[deanoo]

hahahha yee told ya its true lol how did u end up fixing that??

ohh yee and there is no hose going to my dizzy soo yeee...

[deanoo]

ohh yeeee and sometimes my motor still locks after cranking for a while????

i think i fixed the other problem like advancing n shit jus gotta get a timing gun and set the timing
wats the timing supposed to be set at??

[keiichi]

set it at about 10deg btdc or 12 or 8 somewhere around there i think. ring up a mechanic and get him to tell you...

[deanoo]

alright thanx... whats btdc???

[ke70dave]

i "fixed" it by putting the timing back to where its supposed to be

BTDC = before top dead centre

so if you set your timing at 10deg BTDC. that means that the spark plug will spark 10 degress before the piston gets to the top of its stroke (at idle)

since you have no hose on your dizzy, you dont have vacume timing advance, and im not to sure how electronic advance works sorry

[keiichi]

electronic would just sense the rpm and adjust accordingly. its obviously gettine the wrong message somehow.

[deanoo]

alright i just changed the computer and its not that... and im guessing it could be the coil.. coz when i start it it doesnt start 1st go starts 2nd so i think that ther isnt enough power 2 crank it over 1st go

[keiichi]

have you checked the wiring that comes and goes from your dizzy? is there a short somewhere?

[riceburner]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=284290)

4ag is electronic advance, vacumm advance is for carby pieces of shit.

Im still stuck on why this problem comes and goes. Just doesnt make sense.

I bet its real simple too.[/b]

dude my car is vacuum advanced and is a fully electronic fuel 1njectorz
[/b]


Oh really. Show me your vacumm advance then.

[riceburner]

Electronic advance work differently for different manufactures. In the case of the 4ag i believe its rpm+tps that sets the advance. Well those are the main 2 points the ecu references from. There could be small parameters as well the ecu references from.

Dude now you gotta find out why your cams was out of alignment. My bet is start again.

Set the notch in the cams in the right position (timing belt off of course) you know the ones at the front behind the black cover

Make sure inlet cam knotch is as you mentioned before (so you can see thru oil filler) and then hope to god your front crank pulley is on 0deg. If it isnt spot on or with in 1/2 of a degree then there is 1 problem. Shit i just remember, if you cant see the knotch and the crank pulley is on then turn yor crank 360 deg then check again. "Bloody 4 strokes"

If that is good set the knotches on the dizzy shaft and insert.

Get your self a timing light and set to 10btdc.

This is where you might be going wrong as i did once many yrs ago. 10btdc is to the Left of the zero mark on the crank not to the right.

If that doesnt fix your problem then your problem isnt timing related.

When the motor does run properly, does it run well, as in plenty of power or it is sluggish.

[deanoo]

yes the motor runs good after it starts proply
ive got the timing set at 14 doesnt ping etc...

[keiichi]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=284367)



4ag is electronic advance, vacumm advance is for carby pieces of shit.

Im still stuck on why this problem comes and goes. Just doesnt make sense.

I bet its real simple too.[/b]

dude my car is vacuum advanced and is a fully electronic fuel 1njectorz
[/b]


Oh really. Show me your vacumm advance then.
[/b]

*keiichi undoes his fly*
HERE IT IS!!!!
[attachment=9086:attachment]

[keiichi]

the two hoses that come from the dizzy and go past the front of the tapet cover where it says 22r-e

[deanoo]

wtf is that??? does that look like a 4age 100kw??

[riceburner]

wtf is that??? does that look like a 4age 100kw??[/b]


No it doesnt.

All the more reason to ignore him on this subject.

But then again, im sure im not helping much either, so you can choose to ignore me if you like.

[riceburner]

*keiichi undoes his fly*
HERE IT IS!!!!
[attachment=9086:attachment]


Mate you are so on the wrong page you might as well still be the tree.




wtf is that??? does that look like a 4age 100kw??




No it doesnt.

All the more reason to ignore him on this subject.

But then again, im sure im not helping much either, so you can choose to ignore me if you like.

[deanoo]

hey man 2 be honest i got no idea what u tlkin about and all i know is that i dont have those hoses on my dizzy....

thats my motor ther

[deanoo]

hey man 2 be honest i got no idea what u tlkin about and all i know is that i dont have those hoses on my dizzy....

thats my motor ther

[keiichi]

get a picture of the dizzy like i said... zoomed in

[keiichi]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=284866)

wtf is that??? does that look like a 4age 100kw??[/b]


No it doesnt.

All the more reason to ignore him on this subject.

But then again, im sure im not helping much either, so you can choose to ignore me if you like.
[/b]

dude ive been going out of my way and putting in effort to help this guy. and your like "just ignore him", you belong on boost cruising.

anyway. no my car isnt a hachi its a corona with a 22re. i thought you would of figured that cause of my sig and avatar pic.

[keiichi]

hey man 2 be honest i got no idea what u tlkin about and all i know is that i dont have those hoses on my dizzy....[/b]

thats cause you have electronic ignition advance... thats why i said in that pm you should check the wiring in shit

[keiichi]

get a picture of the dizzy like i said... zoomed in[/b]

actually nm. if you dont have those hoses then you dont have vacuum adv.

[keiichi]

vacumm advance is for carby pieces of shit.[/b]

anyway the important thing is that you are wrong and im right... so i win... you lost
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif

[deanoo]

lol yee i got nufin against u helping me outt... anyway i sed earlier in the post i think on page 4 that i sourt the dizzy out its all fixed... jus i think now i need a new coil i dont think its giving enough spark out

[riceburner]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=284290)

vacumm advance is for carby pieces of shit.[/b]

anyway the important thing is that you are wrong and im right... so i win... you lost
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif
[/b]


Mate you didnt even know what type of motor everyone was talking about. And a corona with a 22re doesnt belong on "AE86 driving club" so maybe you should fuk off back to Boostcruising.

Oh you and going out of your way to help this poor guy was clearly an indication that your help was useless and a total waste of time.

Anyways deanoo has bigger problems then your useless advice and my misguided advice.

[ke70dave]

steady on fellas, lest just try and help the guy out here

and so what if its an old corono and not an ae86

whats the stats deanno? any progress?

[deanoo]

heyy ye i fixed half of it... the dizzy was of timing baddd!!!
fixed all the starting retarted and advanced bullshitt... but the motor still locks sumtimes when i crank it over dont know what that is tho

[riceburner]

Awesome work brother.

[deanoo]

thanx man

does any1 know y it is still locking when i crank it over???

[keiichi]

yeh sorry i think that all got a bit blown out of proportion, i was just trying to show that some efi cars do have vacuum adv.

well done fixing it man, dont know bout the locking thing though (maybe its just the starter), sometimes you realise its the most simple thing after youve half pulled the engine apart http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif


and btw, fkn, coronas dont belong to any particular club cause no-one likes em even though they are essentially the same as any rwd toyota.

[deanoo]

boysss got some bad news http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/angry.gif

i have fixed the advance and retarted starting buttt
its sumtimes reverse starts and locks etc..... i got no idea what the is any1 knoww??

[keiichi]

is there a short on the leads to your starter motor? im thinking maybe when you go to start it SOMETIMES the (for arguments sake) damaged leeds are rubbing or something like that and the message to the starter is getting sent the wrong way round (cause its in a circuit right) and its causing it to spin the wrong way. i think maybe if you swapped the leads around on the starter it might cause it to spin opposite, so something alse could be causing it. water or moisture maybe? corrosion?

[ke70dave]

hmm yeah, i would be start looking towards trivial things like keicchii has mentioned, cause man..your car is weird http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Cerby]

so your saying that the leads are being swapped around by a short??
Sorry can't happen. Becuase it is a circuit and obviously a short has a much lower resistance than the starter motor does, it just means that the current will run through short and the starter will get nothing or if it did becuase the resistance over the short increased then it would still run in the same direction.
Cheers
Cerby

[deanoo]

hey guys u reckon this could happen by sucking air from sumwhere??? like vacum or sumthing??? or the gasket around my throttle body coz i can hear a whistling sound coming from ther

[keiichi]

i would still check all your electrics to do with the starter, cause im thinking that something might be causing it to spin the opposite way somehow... god knows man sounds wierd eh.

[deanoo]

hmm yeee
how bout i bring it round since u r in sydney?? what u sayy n then u can see for urself what i mean

[deanoo]

could blocked injectors cause this??? vacume hose sucking air??? starter motor???

[ToySprinta]

Sounds like the problem i have when my car gets hot. For some reason its advances the fck outta of the ignition and pushes the piston back down the bore the wrong driection :s....

[deanoo]

have u fixed that problem yet??? coz mine does the same sumtimes

[ToySprinta]

Got no idea how to. Sometimes the Haltec misreads the CAS, and as soon as it starts runs fine...

[deanoo]

alright found sumthing else out today... when the safc is conneted ot makes it start worse
but dunno y?? any1 reckon its outa tune??? i got a feeling its gotta do with my airflow mixeres

and also i took it to a mechanic and he turn down the idle srcew on the throttle body and that aslso improved it...

[keiichi]

oh sorry i dont live in sydney anymore... i come from the land of anti-drift

[deanoo]

any1 know wats causing this???

[riceburner]

Dam dude this motor sure isnt healthy.

Your dizzy was out, your idle screw (which rarely if ever needs adjusting) was set wrong and it somehow reverse starts it self when ever it feels like it.

And adjusting the idle screw somehow helped it.

Who has touched this motor before. Because they sure as hell didnt know what the f*&k they were doing. Or did you just recently acquire it.

Your stuff is definatly cursed.


hey guys u reckon this could happen by sucking air from sumwhere??? like vacum or sumthing??? or the gasket around my throttle body coz i can hear a whistling sound coming from ther[/b]


Spray carby cleaner all over where the throttle joins the manifold. If you have a leak the revs will rise slightly indicating you have a leak. And theres a fair chance that if you have 1 leak, you will have more.

[deanoo]

hmm i done the conversion myself it was runnin sweet for like 4months... i did cut n shut the manafoild dunno if its leaking from ther

[riceburner]

Is possible your alternator is on the blink.

[deanoo]

what do you mean by my alternator could b on the blink???

[keiichi]

about to cark it... is theere any other things that are even slighlty out of the normal that we should know about? for e.g. something random ill just chuck in.... maybe your cd player just sometimes switvhes off for no reason

[deanoo]

nope nufin like my cd player turns off etc... runs all fine

[deanoo]

look like i have fixed the retarted and advanced starting problem.... but sometimes when i crank it over the motor locks..... could that b my starter motor???

[keiichi]

yes

[juzzo84]

the throw out gear on your starter motor that engages with the flywheel has a mechanisim on it so that it can only spin your flywheel in one direction, if this is damaged/worn/old, it may just be able to throw out in the oppisite direction and cause the car to crank backwards. Does it still stop cranking some times?
A couple of questions
-do you have adjustable cam gears? (are the cam gears independantly adjustable)
-what starter motor are you using? (4ag, 4ac??)
-have you tried swaping starter motors? (like try fitting a spare one or a friends one)
-have you checked the charging voltage of the battery with the car running? should be about 13.8-14.5V
-have you compression tested the engine since you bought/fitted the new motor?
-have the injectors been leak tested/serviced scine you have owned them?
-do you get black some on startup?
-are you getting good engine power when running well??
-what ecu setup are you running, standard? are you running any plug in's?

if you answer all these questions this should lead us all in the right direction a little better.

I really dont think that an air leak will cause this problem, the problem is either in the ignition system or the starting/charging system

where abouts are you located in sydney? im in hornsby if i can help you out!
hope this helps
Justin

[deanoo]

yes it still stops crankin sometimes and before it started backwards...

-i dnt hav adjustable cam gears
-dunno what starter motor it is
-my battery is brand new
-havnt tryd swapping starter motors
-i have 210 in each cyl
-injectors have not been checked for anything
-well i started it 2day and i reved it and i had some black smoke
-yes im gettin good engine power when runnin
-im runnin a jdm computer with a safc but not connected at the moment (but i have changed comps)

[slide86]

so you actually see the engine turn backwards?

the starter cant turn the opposite direction, so thats not doing it. unless the starter is old and screwed and just stopping

usually when an engine locks the timing is way way out or there is fluid in the cylinders and the engine is hydraulic locking.

i would go with the timing first, as in engine timing.......crank to cams and dizzy to cams.

the black smoke would suggest that its getting plenty of fuel but the spark is all wrong ie timing

[deanoo]

the timing is perfect so it wouldnt b the timing... yes u can actually see the motor turn the other way

if it is fliud in the cylinders how can i fix that???

[slide86]

how far does it turn? like a full revolution?

a BHG would cause fluid in the cylinders

[deanoo]

ye full rotation... whats a BHG???

[slide86]

blown head gasket.

but a full revolution is strange. never seen one go back a full revolution. specially if the engine is turning over the right way to start

[deanoo]

hmmm but if i have blown head gasket then shouldnt the water b milky???

but the motor has been runnin sweet for a week n it started all over agen

[keiichi]

not nexessarily, just depends where the gasket is broken... milky water is a commen thing to check though.

[deanoo]

then if its not the starter motor causing it to spin backwards then what is???

[keiichi]

a pultergeist

[deanoo]

whats a pultergeist???

[juzzo84]

a ghost!

[deanoo]

any1 got ideas wats causeing it 2 spin backwards??? and lock??

[keiichi]

just slide bro and everything will fix itself. drift pultergeist FTW!

[slide86]

yeah i am thinking the same thing. thats the only thing that can be making it go backwards.

and im finding it hard to see how it can make a complete revolution in reverse, maybe a quater or half a turn.

i am still going for incorrect timing or spark firing at wrong time.....

[deanoo]

yee but i have already tyrd a dizzy and its still doing it

[deanoo]

u rekcon if the dizzy is set to advanced it could cause it???

[slide86]

timing refers to more than just the dizzy. engine and cam timing will also play a big part in this problem

and yes, to much advance will cause this

[deanoo]

nope hasnt skiiped on the timing belt

[keiichi]

list your aftermarket goodies to do with the engine and gearbox.

[deanoo]

hmmm could the coil cause this???

[cuzzo]

Explain how you know its going backwards.
The coil only supplies spark that it. If a coil is faulty it provides a weak spark.

Can you turn the motor manual with a rachet on the crank pulley?

[deanoo]

you can see it spin the other way

yes i can turn the motor manually

but if the coil gives out a weak spark can that cause it to start reatarted and advanced??

[keiichi]

how can you see the motoe turn backwards? like what r u lookin at when it does that?

[deanoo]

ok when i turn the key it spins clockwise and then it just goes backwards you can see by looking at the pullys they spin anit clockwise

[keiichi]

yeh it sounds like the starter is turning the right way and then soon as it sparks it send the piston back the other way.

[deanoo]

could the spark cause the piston to go the other way??

[keiichi]

yesss... as in your ignition timing is way too advanced upon start-up, or just all the time.

[slide86]

we are going round and round and round, and not getting anywhere.

take it to a mechanic and tell them to fix it. sounds like you have exhausted all you know bout trying to fix the problem, and we arent getting much further.

[cuzzo]

Yeah i vote for a mech.

Only other way get parts of a well know working motor. Change every IGN part then tripple check timing.

If still does the same thing. Burn it.

[mech`s blue]

i would also be checking things like resitance on ignition leads and aking sure they not crossing over.

have you also checked the coolant temp sensor and wiring cause that can cause major issues in regard to timing. you would be surprised how much the ecu relies on coolant temp sensor to make all mixtures ant timing are spot on!

[keiichi]

yeh some good points there i would have to agree

[slide86]

lol of all things i never thought of a swapped ingintion lead duh yeah check that lol[/b]

OMG if its that then i am going to go insane......8 pages for an ignition lead on the wrong cylinder. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/crazy.gif

could be possible tho

[deanoo]

haha na its not the wrong ingition lead im not that reatarted....

one more question can a coil cause this problem???

[cuzzo]

If it can which im 99% sure it cant.

Swap the leads both leads over and connectors from coil to coil(if they reach)

Should act different if one was faulty.

[deanoo]

well i have changed the coil about 2days ago now and it hasnt done it since... so im hopeing that was the problem

[keiichi]

wieerd... knock on wood http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[deanoo]

lol u neva knoww

[slide86]

i dont see how it could either.....but if it doesnt do it again then never open your bonnet again. hopefully you wont have too

[deanoo]

hmmm do u reckon it any of the connections on the coil were loose could that have caused the problem???

[keiichi]

i reackon that a fault in the old coil could of sent a dodgy reading to the ecu and that could cause the ecu to tell the electronic advance or something to fire early? just a stab in the dark http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif

[deanoo]

hmmm im going towards what keiichi said... another thing is there supposed to be come kind of liquid in a coil??? i was shaking it and it sounded like some liquid was inside...

[keiichi]

LMAO... i dunno about that... maybe excessive condensation http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[slide86]

the coil is supposed to have liquid in it. thats there to aid in the cooling of the coil, sort of like a heat sink

[keiichi]

oh ok

[deanoo]

how bout if the coil heats up can it cause it???

[slide86]

no. enter page 9.

usually if the coil overheats then it just cracks and is no good anymore

[deanoo]

hmm how bout igniter could that do anything with this problem???

[Matt-AE86]

Check your ecu for diagnostic codes to sus out the sparking issue. Recheck your timing, usually if you go to start the car and it locks up, the timing is extremly advanced. Also, get someone to try and start your car and listen for sparking from the coil to the negative, or the coil lead leaking spark.

It could also be, just a guess, your rotorbutton and dizzy cap. If either is fucked out maybe some how the spark is jumping which is cause the timing to advance and locking up. So when you first start it its fine for abit, then it locks when it leaks to the wrong spark plug.

But really we need some video footage to pin point this as i think your descrition of what happens when it starts is fairly vauge. Then we can really see if the starter motor is the cause of all this.

Ive had many fucked starter motors when my 4AGE was turbo'd with a low mount manifold. After a phew laps on the track or even driving, depending on the condition of hte starter, the heat will attack it, and it doesnt like to start, its like.. rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....rrrrrrrrrrr...rrrrrrrrr.. like a flat battery.

Anyway, Good luck.

[deanoo]

hmm well my dizzy is set at 14 deg is that to much???

so it could b the starter motor aswell??? coz on hot days and sumtimes when i giv it a hard time it does that rrrrrrrr...rrrrrrrrrrr....rrrrrrrrrr thing

[us_ae86]

i had the same problem. i just chacged out my battery terminals. fixed it for me. there was alot of corrosion on them. also, i have heard of some fuses being melted due to inproper grounds but allowing some current to seep through on occasions causing undesireable outcomes ie. not starting but starting later, shooting off different codes on diagnostics, and causing it to run like the alternator is bad. also, check your flux capasitor and make sure it is set to 1.21 jigawats, then hit 88mph. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif j/k

[deanoo]

alright i try that thanx... how bout the igniter would that also cause this problem???

[deanoo]

???? the starter motor can also lock???

[juzzo84]

probly the only thing causeing the starter motor to stop, is the fact that the engine is stopping the flywheel from turning in the same direction as the throwout gear on the starter.
The fact that the car runs fine when hot baffels me, are your sure that none of the leads are arcing into each other, or into the head.

[deanoo]

hmm naa the spark plugs are fine...

[juzzo84]

the plugs may be fine, but is the spark getting to the plugs?

[deanoo]

i have jus changed the plugs... i also changed the start motor aswell and is still doing it...

could it b a fuel problem maybe???
how can i check of the spark is gettin to the plugs???

[juzzo84]

remove the plugs from the head, reconnect the lead to them and sit them on the cylinder head where the electrode can earth to the head and crank the car, you will head and see the sparks arcing from the plugs to the cylinder head.

you could also buy/borrow a spark tester, which you plug into the lead end and crank the car to test the strenght of the spark.

[deanoo]

hmmm its pissing me off tho.... when i try crank it it doesnt always start frist go but if i take the coil plug off n crank it that means its pumping fuel into the motor but not fireing and when i do put the lead back on it starts first go without any problems..

[cuzzo]

fuel pump weak or not getting clean power?

kinked/blocked hoses?

[deanoo]

thats what i was thinkin about the fuel pump aswell but its working fine i can hear it... ill check my hoses

but can a fuel problem cause this???

[deanoo]

my fuel pump is strong and is getting enough power my hoses look normal not bent or anything

could injectors do anything with this?? example: leaking, blocked injector???

[deanoo]

haha ur funni how bout u come here and have alook for urself and then tell me im blind

[juzzo84]

Fuel delivery could obviously cause no start problems, rough idle/running problems, but surley not engine to go backwards...... maybe ur blind lol[/b]

un true, if there was some fuel and it tried to start and then there was no fuel, then there would be no combustion process and the fact that there was only compression in the cylinder and no combustion, could make it possible for the motor to spin the wrong way???? not saying deffiantly, but possible!
have you tried clamping off your fuel return line while cranking the car to see if this aids your problem??

[deanoo]

hmm nope havnt tryd clamping the fuel return line..

and now its pinging off its head sumtimes on start up it happend after i put bp octane 98

[Matt-AE86]

try a new starter motor already and positive lead to it and better battery grounds and engine grounds.

[juzzo84]

pinging is often related to timing, or some form of pre ignition. eg. hot carbon on the piston or valve

[deanoo]

i have tryed new start motor didnt helpp

but i reduced the timing down to 12 deg and when i put this petrol in it start 2 advance itself on start up and ping

[cuzzo]

Hmm someone really needs to look at this.

[juzzo84]

looking at this for deanoo on the weekend

[juzzo84]

But it wont go backwards from first crank, and wont cause 1 whole revolution[/b]

OH, i was not aware that it started going backwards as soon as it started cranking!

[juzzo84]

im Praying already! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[deanoo]

yee hopefully this gets sorted out

[deanoo]

omgg and now somtimes when i start the motor it pings which i think the dizzy is advancing itself some how

[deanoo]

yee exactly

[deanoo]

yoolol i have changed dizzys back to a 86kw dizzy now it starts good doesnt lock or reverse but sumtimes it starts goodd and retarted...

any1 know wats goin on

[keiichi]

starting retarded might be a good thing because its only idling

[deanoo]

ahh yee well how can i fix that problem???

[deanoo]

yee it idles when it starts retarted but how do i fix it??? and sumtimes it back fires through the intake... how can i fix this problem??

plz someone help

[keiichi]

check your cam tming... sounds like its firing when the intake valves are open and the piston is coming up maybe? i.e pushing the flames back through the intake

[deanoo]

cam timing looks all ok it all lines up

[riceburner]

and sumtimes it back fires through the intake...[/b]

That means at least 3 things

1* cam timing wrong

2*dizzy timing is wrong

3*leads on wrong way.

If it back fire thru the intake you must be able to smell fuel in the engine bay.

I havent read every reply in this thread but i can only assume with 11 pages that it has been suggested and you have done it. Check your timing. It needs to be spot on or you will have trouble.

[riceburner]

check your cam tming... sounds like its firing when the intake valves are open and the piston is coming up maybe? i.e pushing the flames back through the intake[/b]


Or a leaking/faulty injector is fueling up the inlet manifold and its igniting somehow. Maybe leave you cold start injector unplugged and see how that goes.

[deanoo]

i have changed injectors so thats not the problem

[keiichi]

did that include cold start injector if you have one?

[deanoo]

no it didnt include cold start injector but it does it when its cold and hot

[deanoo]

if the dizzy is set abit advanced can that also cause this???

[ke70dave]

^^^agreed, sorry mate, but we've done all we can

in the end of the day there is only so much we can help you with over text based forums

you should proud to have gotten to 11 pages though http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif

[deanoo]

lol yee well i have taken it to different mechanics and they dont know what is causing it so ther u go i have taken it to someone

[deanoo]

haha yee i have also been told from autoelec he goes its ur comp so i changed it but its still doing it... but this friday im goin to see john the 4age builder and hopefully he can fix this...

[deanoo]

yee lets hope... ye dnt worry i am interested aswell

[SEXY 16]

$100 says john sorts it in 10 minutes flat

[deanoo]

alright thanx alot paul for all your help

did he say he knows what the problem is???