TODA for my car

[jcAE86]

Been having a few problems with the 86 lately, blowing out bluish smoke and engine oil draining pretti quick wen i hit high revs

im guessing its the piston rings...and just in case, im gonna toughen it up before anymore damages to the engine.

I got a quote for a few TODA Racing parts:

* TODA Forged Engine Pistons Kit

* TODA Uprated Valve Springs

* TODA Racing Camshafts

* TODA Cam Gears

* TODA Timing Belt

All to fit the 20V Black Top, I have the $$$ to buy and install :2thumbs:

but if i get these, i should b able to rev to 10,000 safe with a ECU? (i have a TOMS gauge)

i dont have a ECU yet but which one would u's recommend? and where to get it tuned?

and exactly how much stronger are Forged? any other engine parts u recommend i need?

its not a race car, i just want to go to track and drift a few times, and maybe autosalon a few times

Thanks for reading my noob post :P

[Bustin_86]

Please dont take any of this post offensively, you seem to have the right idea but it sounds like you havent looked into stuff quite as extensively as you should.

Firstly, TODA make great parts, but just because you strap some sick stuff into your 4age doesnt mean you can blip away to 10,000. With these parts that you have suggested i can see a small rev limit raise being acceptable (take more advantage of bigger cams) but the weak points in your motor (in regards to a "rev raise") havent been adressed. Things like Bearings, Fasteners, Oil Delivery, Conrods etc all play a much bigger part than forged pistons when it comes to a high revving motor that will last.

As for a ECU i would reccomend either microtech (i sell them) or adaptronic. Both are widely available, are affordable and have good tuning capabilities.

Forged pistons are considerably stronger than cast pistons, but the real gain in using a toda forged piston will be the considerable compression ratio raise.

Lastly, if its not really a race car than maybe you dont really need to rev to 10,000 and make 220 rwhp. Your not trying to take out the N2 cup, so maybe its a better idea to drop that final goal to 8500 or 9000 (easily achievable with off the shelf parts) and setlle for 160-180 hp. This will make everything last SO much longer, and will ultimately provide a more fun car for you. And 160 hp atw in a small light rwd car.... more than enough to get yourself into trouble, trust me ;).

[Javal]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bustin_86 @ Nov 8 2007, 12:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433387)</div>
Please dont take any of this post offensively, you seem to have the right idea but it sounds like you havent looked into stuff quite as extensively as you should.

Firstly, TODA make great parts, but just because you strap some sick stuff into your 4age doesnt mean you can blip away to 10,000. With these parts that you have suggested i can see a small rev limit raise being acceptable (take more advantage of bigger cams) but the weak points in your motor (in regards to a "rev raise") havent been adressed. Things like Bearings, Fasteners, Oil Delivery, Conrods etc all play a much bigger part than forged pistons when it comes to a high revving motor that will last.

As for a ECU i would reccomend either microtech (i sell them) or adaptronic. Both are widely available, are affordable and have good tuning capabilities.

Forged pistons are considerably stronger than cast pistons, but the real gain in using a toda forged piston will be the considerable compression ratio raise.

Lastly, if its not really a race car than maybe you dont really need to rev to 10,000 and make 220 rwhp. Your not trying to take out the N2 cup, so maybe its a better idea to drop that final goal to 8500 or 9000 (easily achievable with off the shelf parts) and setlle for 160-180 hp. This will make everything last SO much longer, and will ultimately provide a more fun car for you. And 160 hp atw in a small light rwd car.... more than enough to get yourself into trouble, trust me ;).[/b]

My thoughts exactly.

Also if you are hellbent on uberhigh revs, then having the reciprocating mass (crank, rods, pistons) balanced is a definate go-er.

but there's other things to think about when it comes to your engine build which are equally / more important than 'will it rev to 10,000 like my mate's brotary?'

Where do you want the power band to be? - WHY do you want the power band to be there?
how do you want the power delivery to be?
Is the rest of the drivetrain going to be up to the task?
Is my car's suspension up to the task?'
Do i have the driving skills harness this power?

Things like that.

Javal.

[Nikkojoe]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jcae86 @ Nov 8 2007, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433376)</div>
Been having a few problems with the 86 lately, blowing out bluish smoke and engine oil draining pretti quick wen i hit high revs

im guessing its the piston rings...and just in case, im gonna toughen it up before anymore damages to the engine.[/b]

Worn Valve seals cause blue smoke, not piston rings

[Bustin_86]

Some other things you will need to think about before hitting up "big numbers" (revs and power) would include:

- Oil Delivery (dry sump, more efficient pump/pulley system)
- Flow work (head porting etc)
- COMPREHENSIVE balance (As javal said, but to reach 10,000 you have to get something pretty special done here, experience in specific tolerances is a must! Think more NASCAR than repco engine replacement)
- Cooling (Bigger radiator/oil coolers pretty simple fixes here really)
- HIGH octane fuel (think 98 + av gas to deal with the compression)

And thats before you even think about anything back of the flywheel. Im not trying to scare you off i think its great that your planning a nice NA build, just want you to be aware of the facts and needs.

Edit- If its the valve seals the smoke emissions should be minimal when its running but bad on startup, due to all the oil leaking from the head into the bore when the car is sitting there. Rings would be a more steady cloud that rises with revs.

[jcAE86]

ohh THANKS for all the warnings, will know wat to do now :)

yea i guess i should just do a mild to average setup, have already ordered those parts. will move onto a ECU and cooling asap :)

sorry, just started getting into 86's, dont kno much about the engine :(

[Bustin_86]

Dude no need to apologise.

Just dont want you spending coin and popping good motors.

[Driftspec]

We always knew it would need a rings/seals change some day, that engine was driven for many years with no air filter on it which explains the lovely cloud that appears from behind that car :)

I probably wouldn't expect too many gains from that engine without replacing a lot of the parts in it, its had a hell of a life. Might need to have a chat with Ant from Kaizen (he did the conversion way back when), see what he reckons :)

[jcAE86]

lol driftspec, i c why now haha, i never saw u on the nebo cruise too :(

1 more thing, which engine oil do u's recommend? i have no idea, booked a service next week

[riojin]

well after you run the engine in i would be using penrite SIN 10 or 15 for your engine. that or penrite fully synthetic 5w-60 (which is practically the same as SIN 10).


i think i know whos car you bought. it was on car sales for awhile. its a white trueno with GTV stickers on it.

[jcAE86]

yep thats the one riojin :)

where do u buy this penrite fully synthetic 5w-60? autobarn?

[70XIN]

and when running the car in, always use 100% mineral oil (not synthetic)

let the car idle for 20 minutes, then change the oil and filter, again to mineral

and another oil change after 500 or so k's

you'd be very suprised to see, even on a "perfectly clean" motor how much metal and assembly lube comes out in your oil changes

[Konakid]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nikkojoe @ Nov 8 2007, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433413)</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jcae86 @ Nov 8 2007, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433376)
Been having a few problems with the 86 lately, blowing out bluish smoke and engine oil draining pretti quick wen i hit high revs

im guessing its the piston rings...and just in case, im gonna toughen it up before anymore damages to the engine.[/b]

Worn Valve seals cause blue smoke, not piston rings
[/b][/quote]

Im almost certain that its rings...

[ae71]

im not sure what motor you have in the car now..?

do you have the 20v in or do you mean its going in..?

[Driftspec]

20V blacktop is in the car, just needs rings changed to blow less smoke (as well as a general service, as mentioned above the car spent 4+ years without an air filter :lol: )

Yes that is the one that was on Carsales, the first 20V engine conversion that Kaizen did :)


Yeah I was on the Nebo cruise, I was right behind Glenn when he introduced himself but I may have been distracted. I don't think you were part of the group that was with the popo, that was where we all got split up :( she still go alright? We need another cruise so Glenn and I can see it again :D

[riojin]

you can get the penrite 5w-60 at any supercheap auto or other such store. you can get it ordered at different parts specialists/suppliers.

are you rebuilding your engine yourself or getting it done? if you are getting it done theyll run in the engine themselves with special "run in" oil. listen to what they say to do for the first 5000-8000km and then change to the penrite.

the engine should have gone through run in oil, swap to mineral, mineral oil change at 500-1000km, another oil change when you get up to 5000-8000km but change to synthetic.

i personally like to drive the car lightly for the first 1000km and then after a oil change i like to drive the car like i usually would.

[Nikkojoe]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KonaKid @ Nov 8 2007, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433530)</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nikkojoe @ Nov 8 2007, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433413)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jcae86 @ Nov 8 2007, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433376)
Been having a few problems with the 86 lately, blowing out bluish smoke and engine oil draining pretti quick wen i hit high revs

im guessing its the piston rings...and just in case, im gonna toughen it up before anymore damages to the engine.[/b]

Worn Valve seals cause blue smoke, not piston rings
[/b][/quote]

Im almost certain that its rings...
[/b][/quote]

Probably both, but white smoke is caused by worn rings

Compression test ftw....

[SLO-030]

Compression test wont show anything sometimes.

Just because an engine is smokey doesnt mean that it is low on compression. It can still have fine compression rings but have rooted oil rings.

If its smokey taking off from lights or at start up its a good sign that its valve stem seals.

If its while driving alone its a good sign of oil control rings

[Nikkojoe]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Craig_AE86 @ Nov 8 2007, 10:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433796)</div>
Compression test wont show anything sometimes.

Just because an engine is smokey doesnt mean that it is low on compression. It can still have fine compression rings but have rooted oil rings.

If its smokey taking off from lights or at start up its a good sign that its valve stem seals.

If its while driving alone its a good sign of oil control rings[/b]

Wasn't saying anything about low compression. Doing a compression test to get base figures, then squirt a little bit of oil into combustion chamber through the spark plug hole, then repeating the test again. If it reads higher the second time, rings are worn (or piston/cylinder damage).....

[Konakid]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Craig_AE86 @ Nov 8 2007, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433796)</div>
Compression test wont show anything sometimes.

Just because an engine is smokey doesnt mean that it is low on compression. It can still have fine compression rings but have rooted oil rings.

If its smokey taking off from lights or at start up its a good sign that its valve stem seals.

If its while driving alone its a good sign of oil control rings[/b]

Is that the Fours and More diagnosis?

[Javal]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KonaKid @ Nov 9 2007, 01:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433816)</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Craig_AE86 @ Nov 8 2007, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433796)
Compression test wont show anything sometimes.

Just because an engine is smokey doesnt mean that it is low on compression. It can still have fine compression rings but have rooted oil rings.

If its smokey taking off from lights or at start up its a good sign that its valve stem seals.

If its while driving alone its a good sign of oil control rings[/b]

Is that the Fours and More diagnosis?
[/b][/quote]

Oh, like i said, craig is back spotting Initial D hair salon every day, and working on Jags, Triumphs and Magnas.

But he is right.

[jcAE86]

hey, i just recently changed my spark plugs to iridium ones and ignition leads (custom 20V ones)

its been running good for about 1 week now, but its starting to sound like a boxer? and it will stall if i idle (400 - 500 rev range)

my friends say im running on 3 cylinders and other friends say that its the spark plugs? coz i changed back to the ignition leads i had in before and it still does this.

any help please? :(

[Bustin_86]

Put a timing light onto it and see if its missing on any cylinders, could be a fouled plug, might need a higher temp rated plug.

[biggo]

few tips from a fellow bt20v owner

plugsa usually last me 10 000kms, FWIW i just chuck in normal ones. Iridium will get the same life.

I use mobil 1 5w-50, but i do alot of hard driving every week (think 200kms uphills hitting 8500rpm) and usually get 2500-3000kms out of my oil.

there really is nothing wrong with the motor as standard except for its lack of torque down low. Provided with your upgrades itll only get worse unless you run a stupidly high diff ratio

[350hp4agte]

Iridium's are gay they fowl up real easy use normal plugs i had the same problem also

[mc68]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nikkojoe @ Nov 8 2007, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433413)</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jcae86 @ Nov 8 2007, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433376)
Been having a few problems with the 86 lately, blowing out bluish smoke and engine oil draining pretti quick wen i hit high revs

im guessing its the piston rings...and just in case, im gonna toughen it up before anymore damages to the engine.[/b]

Worn Valve seals cause blue smoke, not piston rings
[/b][/quote]

nikko, either way its burning oil and oil = blue/white smoke

stem seals will let oil into the combustion when its idling for a while OR been sitting not ran, then on start up it will blow smoke...

it does sound like the oil is getting past the rings

that brings me to my next thing.

You say you have the $$$ to build this motor..


to get 10k rpm you really have to be doing some special things, i am no expert BUT at those revs you have to worry about oil startvation..and will need a dry sump. A crank that is balanced and is one grind short of being a michael angelo masterpeice lookwise also....

fancy japanese parts wont mean anything is unbreakable...and the people who run engines to that sort of speed usually have sponsors and an hour metre on the donk...

seems to me you just want to reach the end of your tacho....well maybe slot it into 2nd when your in 5th on the fwy!

as for the ecu, find who the tuners are in your city, see what they WILL tune, see what they have used before, with diferent applications (they know more than people on a forum)

not saying dont try it...just expect it to be alot harder than pistons, cams and a timing belt.

Andy.

[Driftspec]

Guys... its oil burning during combustion. Needs a general service and rings change, and that should get rid of most of the smoke.



Mate if the car sounds like a Boxer engine, you are running on 3 cylinders. Duck under the hood and make sure that all the plugs are connected properly, both on the engine and the ignitors. That will solve it :2thumbs:

[rthy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jcae86 @ Nov 8 2007, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=433427)</div>
ohh THANKS for all the warnings, will know wat to do now :)

yea i guess i should just do a mild to average setup, have already ordered those parts. will move onto a ECU and cooling asap :)

sorry, just started getting into 86's, dont know much about the engine :([/b]

what are the specs of the cams?
why did you get toda gear exactly?
You know seeing you have bought the pistons have considered some spool rods?

make sure you find a decent engine builder when you put it together.

oh and also you will want to look at blueprinting the engine, porting it, obviously a balance, angled intake manifold spacer, top notch extractors, list goes on