4age+e85= ???

[jay70]

is anybody running e85 on their 4age? I'm running my 180 on it now and it's given around 100hp extra, obviously there will be much smaller gains on a non turbo but interested to see how much of a difference it makes

[Konakid]

Only worthwhile doing on N/A if you run higher compression really

[Delazy]

As above...needs to be running 13:1 CR to see any solid power gains...it will however run cooler and cleaner...while being a prick of a thing to start...not worth the effort

[sundee]

Exactly.... There is only so much advance a motor will take.
you can achive 100% VE with a force fed engine, but not even close with an NA.
E85 suppresses knock.. So more boost + greater advance timing
But NA you can only dial in more timing without increasing VE, to do that in an NA you increase compression ratio.

[sundee]

Sorry - VE is volumetric efficiency.

[Prime86]

Interesting...So there is no benefit running an N/A engine on 105-108 octane fuel that burns cooler?

[AJPS]

Interesting...So there is no benefit running an N/A engine on 105-108 octane fuel that burns cooler?

a stock NA engine.

considering the increased difficulty in getting it, the increased consumption and associated pumps and injectors, not to mention cold start its not worth the hassle,

on a high comp NA it is great from all reports and is the way of the -near- future

[Gunner]

anyone ever considered the extra volume of the fuel in the cylinder, and the needs to overcome it?

[Prime86]

I agree that in a stock motor the benefit of running E85 would be minimal and not worth the expense or effort.

When you lift the comp to around 11.5:1 a 4age is on about the limit of pump gas. You can only lift the comp so far before your forced to run a higher octane fuel like E85 or Elf etc. Running a fuel like E85 allows you to bump up the comp and timing to make more power so I would say yes it's worth while in race engines etc running high comp the fact it runs cooler is a bonus. It's also only around $3 a litre verses Elf at $8 for the same octane rating.

[Matt]

on the new 86's there have been a few tuners claim to get 5kw gains. Hardly worth the effort IMO

4agte or fa20T definately

[AJPS]

I agree that in a stock motor the benefit of running E85 would be minimal and not worth the expense or effort.

When you lift the comp to around 11.5:1 a 4age is on about the limit of pump gas. You can only lift the comp so far before your forced to run a higher octane fuel like E85 or Elf etc. Running a fuel like E85 allows you to bump up the comp and timing to make more power so I would say yes it's worth while in race engines etc running high comp the fact it runs cooler is a bonus. It's also only around $3 a litre verses Elf at $8 for the same octane rating.

you can get e85 - well it varies slightly, but reasonable - for 1.29 at the pump

MATT; is that with stock injectors etc

[Prime86]

Would be interesting to see how different it is out of the pump verse out of the drum. I know if its out of a drum you need the put additives in it if the car sits for a long period of time so it doesn't eat everything like Methanol. $1.29 is so cheap we prob will have a WA tax on it over here...Lol.

[AJPS]

wa made a lot of things more expensive for the rest of the country

[Konakid]

its normally 8 to 10% heaper than 91

[sundee]

anyone ever considered the extra volume of the fuel in the cylinder, and the needs to overcome it?

This would just be a rich mixture - not a result of fuel type - E85 requires between 20 - 30% more fuel to achieve a CCM (chemically correct mixture)

So makes no diff.


Would be interesting to see how different it is out of the pump verse out of the drum. I know if its out of a drum you need the put additives in it if the car sits for a long period of time so it doesn't eat everything like Methanol. $1.29 is so cheap we prob will have a WA tax on it over here...Lol.

E85 out of the barrel is that... e85
Out of the pump it varies from e70 - e90
Which is why tuners always tune well on the safe side when the car is running pump e85

[AJPS]

Which is why tuners always tune well on the safe side when the car is running pump e85

yep spot on - the winter mix has more petrol in it.

[AJPS]

Which is why tuners always tune well on the safe side when the car is running pump e85

yep spot on - the winter mix has more petrol in it.

[sundee]

Ha , yea, then there is the winter and summer mix...I think once there is more demand for pump E85, the refinement will be alot tighter

[Gunner]

so that 30% extra fuel in the port wouldn't have any effect on the amount of oxygen entering the cylinder?

would be a good reason as to why most small, run of the mill engines, such as the 4age just don't make any worth while horsepower gains on e85.

[Konakid]

No, you would need to increase the actual compression in each cylinder (therefore oxygen) either by way of thin headgasket or forced induction for it to be worth while.

E85 requires more fuel and therefore more oxygen for it to burn efficiently. because it can sustain more pressure before it combusts spontaneously (detonation) you can run more compression, more bost and more ignition timing to make the engine more efficient. the octane rating of e85 is around 108 compatred to pump 98.

E85 pump caltex has been as low as 60% ethanol i have seen whereas united are much more accurate with their 85

[Gunner]

on something like a 4a, compression wont help it. for e85 to work well on an NA 4a or most small engines, you will need head work, atleast cams dialled to take advantage of it. its why it works so well on boosted cars, you can get the air in there.

[Konakid]

I agree, no point running E85 unless you are using big cams with supporting flow through headwork and a built bottom end motor for high rpm and compresion to take full use of the higher octane one Ethanol.

[Prime86]

You would only run a fuel like E85 in a N/A 4age if the comp ratio is raise to over 11.5:1 and the only reason you would do that is if the engine was a serious engine to start with. Its the octane that allows you to lift the comp ratio in the first place so you don't get detonation, E85 or any race fuel with higher octane ratings work the same in a turbo engine as they do in a N/A engine it's just a fuel.
I guess the only reason everyone thinks it works better in a turbocharged engine is because it has bigger power gains running it compaired to a N/A engine. By hanging a bigger turbo off your engine and running more boost what do you think your doing?Your effectively increasing the compression ratio of the engine, by running the better fuel just means it doesn't get detonation as quick so you can run more boost etc. To make more power in a turbocharged engine they run a lower compression ratio to start with and run a bigger turbo with more boost to make more power.

[Gunner]

Even with raising the comp, you will not get great gains on e85 on an NA engine. it has nothing to do with comp ratio, and all to do with the fact that the fuel injected into the port is taking up more space, so on an engine such as a 20v for example, will draw less air through the ports while running e85, than you would 98.

as for using e85 to offset raising the comp, you would want to go a lot higher than 11.5:1, theres more than one 4a on this forum running 12:1 on 98 with a std ecu. and aren't a lot of the new cars above that ratio too?

not meaning to cause an argument, its just not so black and white when it comes to e85.

[Prime86]

Nothing wrong with a bit a healthy conversation about a topic Gunner no arguments I assure you.

You can't raise the comp without running a higher octane fuel it's pretty much as simple as that. Running over 11.5:1 you run the risk of detenation you may get away with 11.7:1 but you won't run a 4age at 12.0:1 on 98 octane fuel without problems. A formula Atlantic engine running 13-14:1 will only run on 110 octane fuel. It won't even start on 98 when the comp is that high. Your not offsetting the comp by running better fuel it simply wont run without detenation if you don't or in some cases run at all. Nobody would be running a 4age at 12:1 on a stock Ecu, just because it has 12:1 written on the box they pulled the pistons out of doesn't mean the comp with be 12:1.
Running a 4age race engine on pump gas to it's limit and getting for arguement sake 160rwhp. If you lifted the head and put a thinner head gasket in bump up the comp to over 12:1, run a higher octane fuel and get 180rwhp I assure you most would be pretty happy. When a 4age is running that sort of power something as simple as running better fuel and bumping up the comp for what most would say a mear 20hp it is worth every penny to do so. The get a 20hp gain with the same comp and fuel would cost mega $'s maybe up to 4k for the same result. The higher the comp the better the fuel quality has to be and same goes for turbo charged engines or you lower the comp to cope with crap fuel.
When running what they say fusl that runs cold what do you think happens to the air that enters the port, it becomes more dense yeah? That means even tho you run more fuel along your train of thought the air is more dense entering the port and you can fit more air in. If you put more air and more fuel in I think you will agree you make more power.

[Gunner]

to achieve those sorts of results with a 4a, you will need atleast cams, hence my point, e85 with no supporting breathing mods and only compression is still a pointless exercise. A conventional fuel of similar octane will net better results in a mild 4A (comp, exhaust, stacks) But yes, with headwork/cams e85 is the better option. As many of us know, the more work done to an engine, the bigger the gains are with e85 when compared to a conventional fuel. As an example a mild 4age may net 5% increase (unlikely but just for the sake of it) where as one with headwork (minor porting and cams) will see a 20% improvement.

Im not saying anyone is wrong, just theres more to it than what most take into account.

as for 12:1 comp on pump, I am talking from my own personal experiences, it is achievable with a 20v. and I am well aware of the fact there is a lot more to calculating comp than what it says on a box of pistons or headgasket. But it will run, and run well, put 95 in and you will know about it lol. Standard 20v maps are very conservative after all.

[Prime86]

Haha well I was only talking about a 4age that had a lot of work done I think I put in one of my other posts that it wouldn't be worth the effort for the gains on a pretty much stock engine. I was interested in this particular discussion because I infact may very well puting my new engine on E85 and it's a little more than just a bit of comp etc. Still in the process of deciding if im running 98 or E85, if I'm not happy with E85 or change my mind in the mean time I will prob go to Elf WRC fuel.

I have taken a lot into account when it comes to fuel and I have friends running E85 so I know out of the drum it isn't so straight forward but they seem happy enough with it.

Can I ask with your 20V did you ever have it on the dyno?

[Gunner]

That one made 98kw @ 8200 with headers, staged exhaust (2.25-2.5) std airbox with skimmed head, and gasjet, git the graph in a photobucket profile, will see if i can find it.

[Gunner]

Will be interesting to see the results of all these built 4as in the coming months. Seems to be a few big suckers in the works.

[Delazy]

MONTHS? I think you mean years.... :p

[Gunner]

hahaha im trying to be optimistic man.

[sevensevenseven]

as for using e85 to offset raising the comp, you would want to go a lot higher than 11.5:1, theres more than one 4a on this forum running 12:1 on 98 with a std ecu. and aren't a lot of the new cars above that ratio too?


some new cars are as high as 12.5:1 but they would all be using direct injection to make it possible. mazda in japan run their 2L skyactive 4 at 14:1 but they rely on the compression detonation for it to work, we don't get that engine in those specs due to fuel quality apparently.

[Delazy]

^^^ the FA20 in the new 86 is a classic example of 12.5:1 direct injection

[sevensevenseven]

indeed it is

[lolwat]

was a very good read

[Konakid]

I'D still like to see what a stock bottom end 20V with big cams, porting, ecu, exhaust, extractors could do with 12:1 comp and e85 with a 8500 rpm limit.

Would be pretty impressive i reckon.

[Celica RA45]

have used both caltex and united e70/e85 on some beams race motors 1 with 13.5 to 1 comp and 14.5 to 1 comp and have found the caltex to be the most consistent over the 12 months of tests

also use 30% more for e73 caltex and 40%more fuel for the united e85

on the 13.5 to 1 only about 1 to 2kws over the rev range to 9200 rpm

on the 14.5 to 1 only a extra 5kws over the rev range as well

the new engine is now 15.3 to 1 comp static ,but the dynamic is close to 16to 1 with the 14.65 mm of lift cams will test this 1 out at the end of the year

also the only problem with e85 fuels ,is after racing etc ,you need to use a high octane fuel to run through the motor ,or will get surface rust on the bores

[Konakid]

Glenn thats interesting, a mate who tunes motors has a e flex sensor in his skyline daily and 2 months ago saw as low as E60 from caltex E85 pump. United he believes is always up around 80 or above.

When you say a high octane fuel through the motor to stop the bores rusting you mean a non ethanol fuel?

15:1 is crazy, what rwkw figure you hoping for with this one?

[Celica RA45]

i have found the caltex to be around e73 with all the tests i have done as it goes up over here supposedly after the 14nov to e85 and stays untill march long weekend then back to e73

the united that we tested was all over the shop from e90 to e10 from the same bowser over 12 months

the gain from 1 to the other in na form was only a few kws at the back wheels and timming was the same ,but we used more fuel with the united ,thats why i have stayed with the caltex

on using a high octane fuel on idle the bp ultimate is fine

kws figures on the new 1 ,im not sure but im using the same cams and quad throttles with the 14.5 and was up at 204kws at 9200 last year
what im doing with the new 1 is picking up more midrange from 3500 and making max power before it hits 8000 and then after 9000 goes up again

also have changed the old motor with more torque down low and more power and back to 190kws at the top but making 110 at 5 140 at 6 170 at 7 and 190 at 8

and stays the same all the way through to 9200 still making 190 kws .so have lost 14 kws but have more power and torque every where

[sundee]

interesting about E85 rusting bore sufraces..
is that something you found after a pull down or is that just common knowledge?
200 kw beams.. is that on chassis dyno or engine dyno?

[Gunner]

As a rule of thumb joel, e85, should be treated as methanol fuel is. Although vastly different, they still share many characteristics, such as both fuels are hygroscopic (attract/absorb water from the atmosphere)

So to leave e85 (or any alcohol based fuel for that matter) to sit will result in oxidisation of parts (bores, rings, injectors, pumps) which is why we run an oil based fuel (conventional fuels) through the system to expel any left over alcohol.

What Im curious to find out, is just how similar ethanol and methanol engines can be built, particulary in regards to filled/solid blocks and only running cooling through the cylinder head. Id like to think it would be possible with adequate oil temp control, but unfortunately my experience is limited to say for sure, but would be cool if you could, considering the boost you can put through a solid block with out bore failure.

[Celica RA45]

204 is at the back wheels ,but turbo would be cheaper

[jay70]

so I have power fc, 288, 8.35 cams, and trd hg, guessing it isn't going to be worth my time/money to go onto e85?

[Gunner]

not really man, if youre chasing easy power, gas it. Wet 45 shot will wake it up, and if your crafty no one will ever know lol

[jay70]

ok well I guess i'll just leave the power to the nissan and the toyotas can just be slow noisy girl deterrents then

[Konakid]

just go NOS for real 50hp or 75 would be sick, have a button under the throttle on the firewall to activate it at full throttle. Im being serious btw. cheapest 75 hp you can get for like 1500

[Gunner]

Could do it for about $700, NOS Sniper kit $450 or so on ebay, plus bottle fill. Fit it yourself, uses micro switch at throttle body, with in cabin activation switch. Get real clever buy remote bottle opener, and make a hectic sub box bro, and really scare people hahaha

[Konakid]

Best bang for buck

[joeschmo_57]

ok well I guess i'll just leave the power to the nissan and the toyotas can just be slow noisy girl deterrents then

I lol'd

So if the E85 will leave rust if it sits after burning, but the motor is tuned to run with the higher static compression, how will you put tue regular fuel through it to run? Am I missing something or can you have your cake and eat it too

[Celica RA45]

most na motors have the lambda set at 85 to 86 for the e85at wot .you run the petrol through it on idle only which would be 88lambda on the e85