bt 20v v's 3sge beams

[dehney]

hey all
just seen what people think is a better NA motor for money and power

what would be an easier fit in to a ke70
i know u can get beams for around the 4500 dollar mark
but for that much money could i get a bt 20v to have the same or more power ?

cheers
dehney

[Delazy]

hey all
just seen what people think is a better NA motor for money and power

what would be an easier fit in to a ke70
i know u can get beams for around the 4500 dollar mark
but for that much money could i get a bt 20v to have the same or more power ?

cheers
dehney

if u say so....i highly doubt it....

[shift_rook]

ok well the initial outlay of a beams is around the 4500 mark but, add in everything else and you're lookin at about 6-7+ then ther'es a lot of fab work that has to go along with it. plenty of info on here man, just have a look, i also don't believe you could get that power form a bloacktop in $4500 and then there's reliability issues etc etc, where the beams has that power from factory

[dehney]

if u say so....i highly doubt it....
im not saying i could get that power thats why i asked the question cuz i know few people have the beams and 20v motors on this forum

[ke_70]

wtf is so special about a beams? it only puts out like 120kws giv or take doesnt it
not that much more than an na sr20 u could even get a sr turbo 4 less than a beams

[fantapants]

you MAY get the power..... very doubtful, but even if you did, you would still lack significant torgue. This is what gets the car going and really helps to bring it alive.

You can go a similar way to me -
engine 2500
w5?gbox 600
clutch 1000
adap 900
loom 200

= 5200

then you have bits and pieces on top so add another 1500 - 2000 :)
also look at quads... add another 1000

fuck i have spent some money :) ( or at least plan to with tax moneys :)

blacktop is fun and relativley easy with plenty of ooh ahh factor. If you got skills, beams is very doable but expensive. if you havnt skills then its insane expensive :)

[shift_rook]

wtf is so special about a beams? it only puts out like 120kws giv or take doesnt it
not that much more than an na sr20 u could even get a sr turbo 4 less than a beams


ok here we go sr's come with around 100kw at the engine, not atw, so it's about 30-40kw atw less than a beams, seocndly, sr turbo's are turbo(amazing i know) beams are not(another amazing statement) some people like having a n/a engine in a sprinter, plus benefits like torque off the mark not waiting for the boost etc etc, also an sr is a nissan, some people like keepin it in the family, and beams engines are just farkin sick, i'll be chuckin a beams in my car once i get her on the road for a few month, then i'll bolt a turob to her in about 3 years when i get off my p's(successfully done in formula drift(toyota scion))


fantapants is all over it, even though a blacktop seems cheapo as an initial outlay, ad beefin up gearbox and all the other stuff and it isn't very cheap, also the torque isn't there,

[fantapants]

wtf is so special about a beams? it only puts out like 120kws giv or take doesnt it
not that much more than an na sr20 u could even get a sr turbo 4 less than a beams

no it puts out 154kw... very high specific output.

has many many many wonderful engineering bits and tricks... titanium valves, sodium filled titanium valves on exhaust, 12:1 compression, dual vvti etc etc

very nice and fancy engines. Ra45 has 189kw atw out of his so yes, they are something special. They rip the hell out of a na sr20. You "coul" get close to the numbers with lots of head work and compression etc etc etc to the numbers of the beams, but you would end up spending more on the engine.

Im hoping with my beams with quads and standalone, fancy extractmores and bits and bobs for about 145 kw atw. thats na. and a BUNCH of torgue.

[dehney]

i wanna stay na and toyota thats why im asking about the beams or bt 20v so im just best of getting a beams motor then now what have people done for the ecu's have then keeped the factory ecu or gone after market?

[shift_rook]

if you're workin a 20v and you want lots of power you will need an aftermarket computer to utilise the modifications done, for a stock beams you could get away with factory management i think but anthony does a plug in adaptronic kit so if you'r egonna do it do it right

[dr1ft-pig]

2 litre > 1.6litre

torque is awesome :)

[dehney]

2 litre > 1.6litre

torque is awesome :)

yeah so its a pretty good motor is it like a 4age where u can rev it hard or does it make the power in lower revs how hard was the conversion iv gone though ur build thread but i cant find any info could u hook me up with some ?

[shift_rook]

bill sherwoods conversion is very good with all the inbfo, one sec
i'll try and find it

there we go
http://www.billzilla.org/AE863SGE.htm

[dehney]

cheers for that mate ill have a suss

[fantapants]

ant doesnt have a plug in yet. I believe he is working on one, but unless he is hiding it from me :) he doesnt have one available yet.

The standard comp is a pain in the arse as you have to have the dash and a bunch of other bits. so you really need a full front cut to run the stock comp. Adap is a way better option for the costs involved.

They also have a standard redline i belive of 7800??

[70XIN]

3SGE Beams anyday of the week.

[Axentrik]

Beams would be a better engine if your after outright power and torque.

blacktop would be cheaper and its more than enough to have some fun in.

depends on your intentions.

[dehney]

Beams would be a better engine if your after outright power and torque.

blacktop would be cheaper and its more than enough to have some fun in.

depends on your intentions.

well ill be using it for drift iv got a 16v now but i will want more power soon so im just doing some research on what is out there for money cuz i dont wanna spend heaps on the 16v and get no where for when i can spend money on a different motor and get more out of it like a beams or 20v

[shift_rook]

maybe 4agze?? instant torque, still toyota, cheap. if that's not enough power sc14 charger, chuck a smaller pulley on it, great fun!

[Axentrik]

id just go for the 20v. silver top or blacktop, its gonna be about a 20kw increase for minimal dollars.

with cams, compression, extractors, exhaust and aftermarket comp you might see about 110kw.

[Gunner]

I'd say play with the 16v, for the money you spend on a good 20v conversion, you would have a mean 16v. Charged or N/A

[Gunner]

id just go for the 20v. silver top or blacktop, its gonna be about a 20kw increase for minimal dollars.

with cams, compression, extractors, exhaust and aftermarket comp you might see about 110kw.

That could be 10k later, 8 if your lucky, unless you can do all the work, make your own parts etc

[shift_rook]

but then he also has to screw around changing all the water assembly, then pulling the engine apart to change internal shit, gze, more boost, same power, cheaper, easier

[ae86hachiroku]

Really depends what your after.

A Beams would upset the handling of the car, 20v would be keeping it in balance.

[dehney]

nah i just love the na sound so im staying away from the ze
yeah iv been thinking about the 20v but as people have said i would ever get the same power as a beams motor

now iv read the link that was posted up now who else as done the beams conversion ?
any help would be heaps good cheers

[buddyparts]

how about you get your 16v running and rev it and then look for more power

[dehney]

how about you get your 16v running and rev it and then look for more power
how about we have a race 4wd style

[obey wan boenny]

how do you know you need more power dehney you haven't driven it for years now with the webbers it might scare you :P

EDIT: Look at what 16v with same carbs can do dehney :D When doing that all day gets boring then go for more power :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XB3R9OuGVk

[dehney]

yeah true im just getting ready for later on down the track for when the 16v gets boring but ill see come g1 cant wait to drive the bloody thing again

[obey wan boenny]

Yeah G1 will be mint see u out there :D

[buddyparts]

yes den bot you will have the same power as i did

[wanabdrifta]

beams ohh yeah.

[slydar]

im not going to bother to read the whole thread but honestly.

LOL.

beams is a serious conversion, and serious motor, and fairly serious NA power.

20v.. lol its hardly a conversion at all. and it just a 4age.

youre talking a 10 years older engine, with 20% less capacity.. not really comparing apples. and a 20v has no chance of ever making the same power as a stock beams. it may pull the same figure on the dyno if you put $10 000 - $20 000 into it. but it will never accelerate the car as fast. capacity plus a much more sophisticated valve control system says never.

[Axentrik]

That could be 10k later, 8 if your lucky, unless you can do all the work, make your own parts etc

well cams, compression, extractors and ecu are what i have planned for mine. may eventually get port, polish, valves cut, knife edged and lightened crank but that would be later down the line as i don't plan on changing the engine to anything else unless someone comes up with a decent (and not extremely priced) way to put a 2zzge in an ae86.

i'm guessing it will cost closer to 5-6k than 8-10.

Silver Top $400
Rebuild + 0.5 mm headgasket $500 ish
Water kit $400
ECU + Tune $1500
Cams $1500
Clutch + FLy Wheel $1,000
extractors $300

I may have got the 4AGE fairly cheap but this is a rough guide of what i think it will cost. anyone who's done the conversion have a different opinion on what it will cost?

No idea how much a BEAMS conversion would cost, but im assuming once its all in there it would be close to the 10k mark.

[MINIHORSE]

dude stick 16v or 20v if you must do something different, beams would be a fabrication nightmare, not to mention the extra weight

[chrisjjanfd3s]

Hey mate what application will the car be for? If your talking about bt20v and beams 3s you must have quite abit of money to play around with :) If you want a hipo NA engine have you ever considered a 1UZ of a peripheral ported 13B conversion? Or if you want something cheap and simple why not a 4agte, a 150 rwkw 4agte will be 100x more reliable than a 150 rwkw na 20v

[fantapants]

the weight isnt such a HUGE difference guys.

i have pulled a lot of the engine, so all i have left in terms of accessories is the alternator. Manifold is ditched in favour of quads, and that thing is huge, so prob save a tiny bit there.

prob save a bit on wiring too as there is fuckloads :) but seriously i recon there is prob only a couple kilos in it. I wieghed the 4age with clutch on and weighed the beams with no clutch or flywheel. cant remember the numbers - too drunk :) but the difference was only a little more than the wieght saved by going frp bonnet from memory.

And its fairly easy to bring the weight back enough to not have the extra wieght swinging in front of the wheels. 4age sit relatively forward. The blocks are only about 1 - 2 cm different discounting the funky sump. The 4ag seems to mount directly between 2 and 3, but the beams mounts can be pushed back to an equivelant under 1 or between 1 and 2. (this is a bit of educated guestimation as i have only measured, not thrown the engine around the bay)

But it is a serious bit of work :)

[driftke70]

my standard dump and cat from the gen 3 weighed so much, the rest weighs no much more than a 4a.

[dehney]

it wouldnt be that much of an night mare it would just take time to do and to do it right thats all its like with any conversion it takes time the main thing would be the sump i dont care about my gearbox tunnel as i would make a new one so i could use the 6speed box

heaps of people have done it so it cant be that bad with the hole weight problem

[ae86hachiroku]

the weight isnt such a HUGE difference guys.

i have pulled a lot of the engine, so all i have left in terms of accessories is the alternator. Manifold is ditched in favour of quads, and that thing is huge, so prob save a tiny bit there.

prob save a bit on wiring too as there is fuckloads :) but seriously i recon there is prob only a couple kilos in it. I wieghed the 4age with clutch on and weighed the beams with no clutch or flywheel. cant remember the numbers - too drunk :) but the difference was only a little more than the wieght saved by going frp bonnet from memory.

And its fairly easy to bring the weight back enough to not have the extra wieght swinging in front of the wheels. 4age sit relatively forward. The blocks are only about 1 - 2 cm different discounting the funky sump. The 4ag seems to mount directly between 2 and 3, but the beams mounts can be pushed back to an equivelant under 1 or between 1 and 2. (this is a bit of educated guestimation as i have only measured, not thrown the engine around the bay)

But it is a serious bit of work :)

The comment about fibreglass bonnet, that doesn't make much sense, fibreglass bonnet with a 4AG then that's even lighter then?

On paper depending what the difference on weight is, I'm still keen on finding this out for myself, but something even like 20kg makes a huge difference when sitting on the front of the car. And I'm willing to bet the BEAMS is quite a bit heavier then the 4AG, not too mention the gearbox and the diff you'll need the overall weight increase would be huge.

[Anthony]

well my coupe was 881kg wet with carbon bonnet and rear half of interior gone but with 9 in wheels, beams, 6 speed and F diff. and a 54/46 weight balance. yes they are heavier, but not that much.

[ae86hachiroku]

Define what is not that much? Fairly bold statement.

[Anthony]

not that much means that a few simple weight reduction mods took an 86 with beams motor, 6 speed and 7.5 in diff 40 kgs under list weight.

I dont think its that bold when ive built it, corner weighted it and drifted it

bold would be saying that a beams motor will make an 86 handle badly when you have done none of these :)

edit:
And I guarantee, all BS aside. that you will have a far bigger smile on your face drifting (or racing etc) a beams powered 86 than a 20V one every time, and that it will be far more reliable.

If that is worth all the extra effort and/or money to you then I say do it.

[Frak]

What Toyota should of made was a 2ltr, 5 valve, quad throttle, Dual vvt-i engine, with a HUGE redline, now that would be sweet.

[driftke70]

pretty much spot on ant

in all honesty through my mucking around with a 4age, if anything it felt a little light in the front end.
my 3s is a bit heavier, but a fair bit further back,
any weight ballance issues is balanced out with a heavier diff and g box,
the g box is in the middle of the car so it doesnt really effect much,

as ant said, 4age can do pretty much anything, as shown by a fair few people,
but a beams is taking that same principle, and extending it in all the right places,
more torque where the 4age needs it, more power in general, more reliability, more usability etc.

[ae86hachiroku]

Isn't the BEAMS close enough to that. Huge revs are unnecessary, it's a bit of a wank factor really, if you can produce the power under 8 you are keeping a reliable engine.

[Frak]

Isn't the BEAMS close enough to that. Huge revs are unnecessary, it's a bit of a wank factor really, if you can produce the power under 8 you are keeping a reliable engine.


Not really, imagine a nice flat torque curve from low rpm to high rpm :)


revs and torque = more hp :)

make it shorter stroke to keep piston speed down.

my bike has virtually a flat torque curve from 6000rpm to 14,200rpm, fires two cylinders 35deg apart of each other(big bang) and the power feels fantastic :)

[Anthony]

yeah some runs i would swear im around 7-7500, felt sorta "fun" like those revs. then you watch in car and its all 4500-5500.

you might think theyre a wank factor, but I bet if you drove one youd think differently.

yes 20V's are reliable, obvisouly the A motor is one of the all time best for that. but in comparison I would say that a beams (sorry - wanky, I mean SXE10 3SGE) is more reliable and does what it does with less stress.

[Frak]

If I were doing a conversion into my 86 again, I'd go BEAMS :)

[ae86hachiroku]

No I didn't mean wank factor as in the BEAMS being one.

I meant having revs like 10,000rpm +. Sorry if it was put the wrong way.

And I can definitely imagine it being awesome fun, the torque missing in the 4AG is a real bummer, but it's just the overall weight that I don't agree with, and of course, it is countered by the extra power but that's just me, not saying it shouldn't be done.

I'm just very eager to see the weight of both engines next to each other which no one has been able to answer with straight numbers.

[Anthony]

ah sorry misread, I get a little emotional about them :)

yeah something ive always wanted to do as well. not easy to organise.

All things being equal (a motor with plenum, alt and exh primaries) id say a beams 3s is 20-30kg heavier than a 4a in the same trim. I would put money on the difference being in that range. Id put a 6 speed at being 5kgs heavier than a W58 and 15-20 heavier than a T50.

the heavier box and diff are really just a by-product of more torque at the engine, whether it comes from a grenade 20V or a beams :)

[Poobrown86]

http://www.youtube.com/user/jekar123654#play/all/uploads-all/0/u1q0McD8hUw

Latest addition to my 3s.. gotto say, i'm a little disappointed, the sc kicks in far too late, but adds alot more kick to the motor tho!

[GEMTA22]

I was considering a 3sge beams, but decided a 4agte was more in line with my budget.

Love a 3sge tho, very nice engine and power/torque curve but simply couldnt afford it.

[fantapants]

wieghts pf mmy 20v.... 123kg. this included clutch and flywheel and comp and wiring... all tucked up on the engine when pulled from the car.

beamsno clutch and no comp wiring - same quads and exhaust manifold.125kg. how much is a clutch and flywheel weigh??? about 8kg for a lite wheel? and 10 for clutch?so 145?

thats a 20 kg difference. Thats weighed on the same scales both motors dry.

correct me if the clutch weight is off? :)

[Axentrik]

anyone done a 20v conversion and think the rough price guide i wrote up is either too little or too much?

and anyone doing a beams convo who could put up a similar price guide for the BEAMS conversion?

[ke70dave]

why do we have to put BEAMS in capital letters everytime we write the word BEAMS.....BEAMS....

has any one ever had an ae86 corner weighted to prove this oh so worshiped "perfect weight distribution"?????

or is it just internet hearsay that has carried on and on....

maybe its something like 47/53% and the extra weight of this BEAMS (note capital letters) actually bumps it to 50/50?? this is of course assuming that 50/50 is the perfect distrubution.

seems to be alot of ppl pulling facts that dont have much backup....

[Axentrik]

we capitalize beams because it is an acronym

[Frak]

BEAMS is in capitals because it is an acronym, that's how you do it with the English language.

I have a British article where they test an AE86, an AW11 and an AE82 GT, the article is from when they were all new. The weight distributions as checked by them are;

AW11
Front 43%
Rear 57%

AE82
Front 59%
Rear 41%

AE86
Front 50%
Rear 50%

The reason for the article is to check the difference in handling using the same engine by the same manufacturer but in different platforms.

[Frak]

lol SNAP!!!

[ke70dave]

*eats my own shoe*

i forgot about the acronym thing

[Anthony]

an engine so powerful it can divide a community

[Frak]

an engine so powerful it can divide a community


I like both, a lot :) unfortunately I haven't been for a drive/ride of a BEAMS powered car :(

both my cars are 20V powered.(ae86, ae111)

[Anthony]

Well not many have I guess, which is unfortunate. Just seems to be a topic that gets people going a bit for some reason :)

[Frak]

Just seems to be a topic that gets people going a bit for some reason :)

Just like the old 16V vs 20V debate :yeah:

[driftke70]

20v never really turned me on for some reason, id rather a 16v, if i wanted any more id end up exactly where i am right now :S