Rose Jointed suspension parts

[sundee]

CAR – Ke70

MOTOR – 4a 20v turbo

USE – drift/street

PROBLEM/QUESTION - hey fellas, im looking around at getting some rose jointed suspension pieces:
Adj rose joint 4 link
pan hard
Castor rods.
And maybe LCA’s

ive read random comments about the T3 range, but can anyone elaborate on random comments.
Anyone had person experience with this parts, how are they to deal with as a company?

Have u had parts - break, spherical bearings crap out?
stuff like that..

Any suggestions for other brands? Yep, Apex got them in mind, want to see what else is tried and proven.

Cheers


PS. sorry Beally..
OCCURS/STARTED WHEN – N/A
PERSONAL SITUATION – N/A

[Frak]

I have rose jointed lca's, castor rods, panhard rod and upper/lower arms, all cusco, bought new so cost a bit, but nice stuff.

[sundee]

for sure the cusco stuff is quite dear. if i only had the cash..

[Konakid]

After seeing the cusco gear i really wouldnt bother with anything else as fa as lca + castor rod setup goes.

The T3 castor arrangement moves the location of the pivot from factory altering the geometry, presumably for the worse.

As far as 4 links go, apex can supply all you need, with quality joints at a good price.

[sundee]

After seeing the cusco gear i really wouldnt bother with anything else as fa as lca + castor rod setup goes.

The T3 castor arrangement moves the location of the pivot from factory altering the geometry, presumably for the worse.

As far as 4 links go, apex can supply all you need, with quality joints at a good price.


yeah the cusco formula link setup is the ultimate. but i dont have the cash for that right now.. Apex are getting back to next week to see if joints are available as they dont have any

[stylz]

does anyone know where to get some decent motor sports rose joints from?
im just going to make my own, see how that goes :x

[sundee]

does anyone know where to get some decent motor sports rose joints from?
im just going to make my own, see how that goes :x

that could be an option to... id have no idea where to buy them though

[stylz]

neither, and thats my problem :(
im a fitter by trade and ive got a whole workshop to use to make em. i just need some decent rose joints to do it with
wouldnt mind making my own rose jointed panhard rod and 4 links

[Skylar]

You go down to your local race shop and buy/order them?

Failing that, baker precision, pegasus racing, summit racing all sell various sized left and right hand thread rod ends. In Australia, meridian sell them but note most are imperial sizes. Summit sell a few metric sizes from QA1 if you feel more comfortable with metric stuff.

[sundee]

anyone else using something different? got some feedback to give?

[shift_rook]

grant munday performance sell joints, stylyz they're in oakleigh, i'll probs just make my own as i have a nice lathe at home, feels good makin ya own performance stuff aswell

[redsprinter]

try motorsport connection if your playing in sydney ... good guys and they know their shit ..they have rose joint . speedflow fitting . braided line and almost anything motorsport wise.

Motorsport Connections
www.mscn.com.au

15/4A Foundry Rd
Seven Hills NSW 2147
(02) 9838 7272
Get directions

[sundee]

try motorsport connection if your playing in sydney ... good guys and they know their shit ..they have rose joint . speedflow fitting . braided line and almost anything motorsport wise.

Motorsport Connections
www.mscn.com.au

15/4A Foundry Rd
Seven Hills NSW 2147
(02) 9838 7272
Get directions

and their also the most expensive in the buisness! for everything!... better off going to rocket industries.

although making them myself is an option, i dont have a lathe so im more after what guys are using in their cars now and how they rate the parts

[ke_70]

an artical on making custom rosejointed suspention would be awesome

[350hp4agte]

teleflex is the go there cheap as i bought chromeolly joints today "for race use only" and they were 11 bucks each

http://www.teleflex.com.au/Products.aspx?Series=42

[sundee]

an artical on making custom rosejointed suspention would be awesome

yeah i second that. it cant be that hard really


teleflex is the go there cheap as i bought chromeolly joints today "for race use only" and they were 11 bucks each

http://www.teleflex.com.au/Products.aspx?Series=42

thats cheap as! gonna check the link now. cheers

[350hp4agte]

an artical is probably not going to work its not like, say....... an engin conversion were you buy bits and bolt them together, it would be like having an artical on how to make a hilux diff fit a ke or ae86 ya need a jig to do it ya need to know how to weld, i made my own i made a jig so it all went back together at the same angles, I used steel pipe 3mm wall M20 chromeolly rose joints. (check my members ride thread) not saying mine are awsome or anything, just saying i dont think an artical will work.

[sundee]

ive seen some use aluminium 6060 and 6061 grade.. not that that means a whole lot to me..

[Robo86]

i run DMAX rose jointed castor rods, i love them. plenty of adjustment and a good price too :) there not welded like the cheaper brands either.

[sundee]

where did u pick them up from robo? JP?

[Robo86]

yer mate, yahoo.. ill grab a link for u tomoz if ur keen

[sundee]

yer mate, yahoo.. ill grab a link for u tomoz if ur keen

i had a look at the D-Max ones on yahoo JP.. and then compared them with the ones on the D-Max site.. and they are different design. so maybe the ones on yahoo JP are a nock off off D max items.

im getting a price for D max trailing arms, panhard and tension rods through D max them selves.

been talking to Techno Toy, and they are now using rod ends made in the states, alot bigger and teflon lined. their prices are pretty good aswell.

then we have Cusco, panhard rods are $150 AUD on yahoo JP, cant find trailing arms yet. their tension rods are over $500 AUD!!!!
ouch!

[starni_boy]

East Bear LCA and caster arm setup looks the business, but costs an absolute bomb.

NAMS is also fairly good I hear..

[sundee]

well heard back from D max Aus - they only supply body parts, and their working on getting in suspension peices "soon" should be another good option

[Skylar]

NAMS/Ueo is shit. Well, not really but their rod ends are.

If I ever upgrade my trailing my arms, it'll be to these (http://www.battleversion.com/~battleve/product_info.php?cPath=8_9&products_id=23).

[sundee]

NAMS/Ueo is shit. Well, not really but their rod ends are.

If I ever upgrade my trailing my arms, it'll be to these (http://www.battleversion.com/~battleve/product_info.php?cPath=8_9&products_id=23).

the way i see it if your going to upgrade to sold rose joints - do them all not half. im not a fan of the battle version design, and if u read the specs, all of these components are made from the same aluminium 6060 or 6061 which is the strongest without going to the harndening process, they all use teflon lines spherical breaings, they all have a milled surface for on car adjustment.

really im not seeing much in it, quality of bearings would be an issue but other then that u cant really go wrong.

[Robo86]

i had a look at the D-Max ones on yahoo JP.. and then compared them with the ones on the D-Max site.. and they are different design. so maybe the ones on yahoo JP are a nock off off D max items.


Nah, mine are genuine.

kinda interested in the 4link discussion, cusco do a 4link very simmilar to that battle version one.

[Skylar]

"In many race fields solid, ball jointed ends are fitted in place of the bushing to give extreme feedback to the driver with minimal isolation from harsh vibrations, but such items will put enormous stress on the body and sometimes creates cracks in the uni-body of the AE86. Needless to say, this is not an ideal condition for daily driven cars or cars used on the street...not to mention the rattles and jiggles the car will exhibit with no isolation point for vibration. But since all links have joints on BOTH ends, we can replace the floating side (one that is not attached to the body) with a rigid mount while keeping the body-mounting side, rubber or urethane bushing. This way it would be somewhat of a in-between setting for occasional racers who wish for more feedback at expense of some road noise and driveline noise."

From here (http://www.club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_pages/Control%20Arms%20by%20BattleVersion.htm).

Cusco do bush/bush, bush/rod end, rod end/rod end. It's just personal preference. I just put super pro bushes in my stock arms and left it at that. I have no need for adjustment *yet*.

[Konakid]

Ever since riding in Just Half steppin's t18 with t3 rose jointed 5 link, im completely against rose jointed trailing arms for street use. Not only was it noisy as all hell but upon chucking it on the hoist after a a few skids and a week of driving (nothing even that hard) it had popped the chassis seam in one place for about 3 inches long.

Sure it was super predictable (didnt drive the car) but when you can get adjustable arms that are bushed (Cusco) or traction brackets to help with rear traction, i just dont really rate it as a street mod.

Fine if you are going to spot weld your car but for me, its superpro super stiff poly bushes everytime, a rose jointed panhard rod if you feel the need, they feel really good.

Also, his car snapped two T series axles in a week skidding in the wet with 185/60 shitters.

[sundee]

What kinda noise are we talking about here? Clunks or more ambient
noise? I've read that they can be noisy but I wasn't sure wat kind
or how loud. Did the car you ride in konakid have any carpet or sound
deadener removed? And where abouts did the seams start to come appart?
I might have to crack out the welder

[Konakid]

Just vibration noise really, few clunks here and there, heaps of rattles.

It did have no deadner or carpet tho so that definately would have contributed to the noise.

Seams came apart at the rear just forward of the upper trailing arm mounts.

[sundee]

thats a bit of good information their. i was thinking of re enforcing the area around the trailing arm mounts. so i will do that.
no carpet and no deadener, my car had normal rubber bushings and no carpet or deadener and the road noise was loud!. this time im going no deadener but ill be throwing some carpet in to keep the noise down.

im just about to buy a rear 5 link from techno Toy, and Tension rods, and tie rods, and some phat 20mm ajd steering knuckles, and an LCA kit and a Tow hook ;) just in case i get stuck hehe

mmm yum beefy steering knuckles! why buy OEM when u can get these.. their new ones have 2 positions for mounting the tie rods.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/5/21173.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/5/21174.jpg
http://www.technotoytuning.com/productdetail.php?p=789

[Skylar]

the way i see it if your going to upgrade to sold rose joints - do them all not half. im not a fan of the battle version design, and if u read the specs, all of these components are made from the same aluminium 6060 or 6061 which is the strongest without going to the harndening process

Why is it that people upgrade to solid links on ae86? You realise it basically stops the car from being able "roll" around the diff (as in body roll). Like, you know you lower your car and the nose of the diff points down due to the different arcs taken by the ends of the trailing arms. This is all good but now imagine the car taking a corner. For me it's easier to imagine the diff rolling around the car than the car rolling around the diff, it's the same thing but I'll explain it like the car is stationary.

Say we're turning left. The driver's side of the diff is forced up into the chassis and the passenger's away from the chassis through the corner. When the diff housing moves up in relation to the body the nose points down like I said before and the nose points up when the diff housing moves away from the body. One side of the diff housing is trying to point the nose up while the other end is trying to do the opposite. So, when the car rolls from cornering the diff housing must twist (or the body must flex) to allow the car body to roll. Leaving bushes in the arms allows it to take up the difference in arcs without straining the unibody structure or the diff housing.

Because the chassis has to flex (not easy until it cracks and is able to flex) for the diff housing to roll, the chassis adds greatly to the roll rate of the car and the lateral load distributions change from what they're supposed to be as set by your springs and anti-roll bars.

In short words: The diff housing is overconstrained and loads up the chassis/diff housing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but all that came off the top of my head so there's probably something I've screwed up on.

Oh yeah, BV's a firm believer of little parts breaking than the big pieces. If his design looks flimsy or whatever, it's because he designs it so that in the event of a crash, the part breaks before it transfers loads into the chassis and bends it. Might ruin your day by not being able to keep driving but it might save your chassis.

[sundee]

that sounds interesting, not that i really thought of it, but your explanation sounds on the money, i definatly see what you mean.
Then if all the big companies make solid mounted trailing arm, what was their intended purpose of the design in the 1st place?
BTW who is BV?

Id actually like to get some others opinions on this.. where is SR rolla when u need him.. that guy is a suspension nutta!

[Skylar]

Companies aren't as smart as you think they are and don't think things through then everyone else copies them thinking, "oh shit, Company X has that product out, we need to at least match their shit, otherwise we's losing out"?

I don't care enough to figure out their mentality, I just know I'm not a fan of it and that battle version makes a good thought out product. BV is short for Battle Version.

There was a thread on the old forum where RobertoX said the same thing in that the live axle is overconstrained in roll and I found a cool gif showing what I explained but I can't find it. Probably in one of the obscure but informationful pages that I come across when looking into stuff.

[sr_rolla]

skylar speaks truth about the diff twisting business.

The most basic way for me to describe it is this, research rod ends and shperical bearings in bending.

When i went 2 SA and dropped in at AJPS i very simply showed this to fedral on the front of his car on the hoist. If you want to run full rose joints it can be done, but you have to do a hell of alot more than just replacing the existing arms with rosejointed units. What causes the damage is when the rosejoints bind up and then they will bend the weakest link (usually the body as in federals car).

Taking the rear you HAVE TO convert the car to an equal length 4 link if you want full rosejoints. With an equal length 4 link the twisting that skylar described above is doesnt happen so in turn, the body isnt loaded up and the rosejoints dont go into binding and try to rip the floor out.

Taking the front you have to re-design the caster rod to LCA joint as in the cusco formula (i think thats what its called) replacement front end. The easiest way to describe it is to imagine one of the front corners on its own, picture the chassis rail, castor rod and LCA as a triangle. Now as basic high school geometry teaches us, if u change the length of any one side of that triangle then all the apexes of the triangle must change aswell, so, unless u have a pivot at the caster/LCA joint (assuming the balljoint, LCA bush and castor rod bush are all rosejoints), the whole system will go into binding and eventually fail. In the case of the front this means most likely, popped rosejoints and bend castor rods.

If all of what i have just written makes absolutly no sense to you, it probably a good idea to not run rose joints other than those bush/rod end ones that skylar was talking about and those cusco castor rods AJPS was talking about. Esspecially those cusco arms, if i wasnt gonna make my own stuff up i would definately be running them

[Skylar]

Bro, that's not my name, Bro.

[sr_rolla]

Bro, that's not my name, Bro.

My bad, it was 3am when i wrote that, i was pretty fuxored, i fixed it

[Skylar]

Cheers dude.

[Robo86]

so. in my situation (daily, but also does alot of track drifting) what 4link would you lads choose, i dont really care about noise etc. i was just gunna grab a t3 one but yer dunno now. cheers

[fantapants]

im running the tuneagent ones... guys are great to deal with and they loook suspicisously like the dmax ones :)

[Skylar]

so. in my situation (daily, but also does alot of track drifting) what 4link would you lads choose, i dont really care about noise etc. i was just gunna grab a t3 one but yer dunno now. cheers

So, I take it you didn't read the last page or didn't understand it so I'll just repeat quotes.


If I ever upgrade my trailing my arms, it'll be to these (http://www.battleversion.com/~battleve/product_info.php?cPath=8_9&products_id=23).


"In many race fields solid, ball jointed ends are fitted in place of the bushing to give extreme feedback to the driver with minimal isolation from harsh vibrations, but such items will put enormous stress on the body and sometimes creates cracks in the uni-body of the AE86. Needless to say, this is not an ideal condition for daily driven cars or cars used on the street...not to mention the rattles and jiggles the car will exhibit with no isolation point for vibration. But since all links have joints on BOTH ends, we can replace the floating side (one that is not attached to the body) with a rigid mount while keeping the body-mounting side, rubber or urethane bushing. This way it would be somewhat of a in-between setting for occasional racers who wish for more feedback at expense of some road noise and driveline noise."

[sundee]

skylar speaks truth about the diff twisting business.

The most basic way for me to describe it is this, research rod ends and shperical bearings in bending.

When i went 2 SA and dropped in at AJPS i very simply showed this to fedral on the front of his car on the hoist. If you want to run full rose joints it can be done, but you have to do a hell of alot more than just replacing the existing arms with rosejointed units. What causes the damage is when the rosejoints bind up and then they will bend the weakest link (usually the body as in federals car).

Taking the rear you HAVE TO convert the car to an equal length 4 link if you want full rosejoints. With an equal length 4 link the twisting that skylar described above is doesnt happen so in turn, the body isnt loaded up and the rosejoints dont go into binding and try to rip the floor out.

Taking the front you have to re-design the caster rod to LCA joint as in the cusco formula (i think thats what its called) replacement front end. The easiest way to describe it is to imagine one of the front corners on its own, picture the chassis rail, castor rod and LCA as a triangle. Now as basic high school geometry teaches us, if u change the length of any one side of that triangle then all the apexes of the triangle must change aswell, so, unless u have a pivot at the caster/LCA joint (assuming the balljoint, LCA bush and castor rod bush are all rosejoints), the whole system will go into binding and eventually fail. In the case of the front this means most likely, popped rosejoints and bend castor rods.

If all of what i have just written makes absolutly no sense to you, it probably a good idea to not run rose joints other than those bush/rod end ones that skylar was talking about and those cusco castor rods AJPS was talking about. Esspecially those cusco arms, if i wasnt gonna make my own stuff up i would definately be running them

thanks man, yeah i understand that, can u explain why it doesnt happen with an equal length setup?

as for ideal trailing arms, i dont think it really matters what brand, T3 seem to make some good things, and alot of us cant afford 500-600 for cusco tension rods or castor rods whatever u want to call them.

yeah i would love to buy a cusco formula link front LCA/castor rod combo.. but again unless i can get the setup for under $1000 its not going to work for me, some of us guys just want some more adjustability and dont really care if its not working 100% properly.. like the cusco LCA/castor rod combo, although its the "perfect design" that design cost alot of money,
.. its hard u know... u want to to fix your pinion angle on your slammed rig, u dont want to loose your back seat and u want to make the whole rear more ridgid so u get alot more feedback..

u want to get alot more castor than stock rods.. u cant affort the ducks nuts (cusco) so u just have to settle for something less.

AJPS im gonna PM so u can get me a price on a cusco formula link LCA/castor rod setup but i know its not going to be pretty, but u may surprise me.. we'll see.. if its a good price i may splurge, but i doubt it will be under 1600 bux

[slide86]

my cusco formula link setup has cost me 350 so far :) 2 cans of paint and one new bearing.....they are pretty much brand new again!
its all genuine stuff, got the whole setup in one auction.

id pay double that for the same setup if i had to tho......there is no substitute for quality

[sundee]

my cusco formula link setup has cost me 350 so far :) 2 cans of paint and one new bearing.....they are pretty much brand new again!
its all genuine stuff, got the whole setup in one auction.

but id pay double that to get the proper setup, there is a big difference

BS!! u son of a B%#*H ... that would be insane! im gonna keep a look out.
I would pay double aswell. but anything over that is a bit exy.

[Frak]

Taking the rear you HAVE TO convert the car to an equal length 4 link if you want full rosejoints. With an equal length 4 link the twisting that skylar described above is doesnt happen so in turn, the body isnt loaded up and the rosejoints dont go into binding and try to rip the floor out.

Taking the front you have to re-design the caster rod to LCA joint as in the cusco formula (i think thats what its called) replacement front end. The easiest way to describe it is to imagine one of the front corners on its own, picture the chassis rail, castor rod and LCA as a triangle. Now as basic high school geometry teaches us, if u change the length of any one side of that triangle then all the apexes of the triangle must change aswell, so, unless u have a pivot at the caster/LCA joint (assuming the balljoint, LCA bush and castor rod bush are all rosejoints), the whole system will go into binding and eventually fail. In the case of the front this means most likely, popped rosejoints and bend castor rods.



I started reading all these comments and thinking WTF, but you see I take good geometry for granted as I have converted the rear to equal length arms and am running full Cusco set up in the front. So I agree with comments above. On a lowered 86 with rose joints I feel the rear must be equal length.

[sr_rolla]

The reason an equal length setup doesnt twist is because the arms are equal length and have equal arcs up and down, so the diff moves perfectly up and down as oppossed 2 haveing differing arcs that cause the diff 2 twist as it rises and falls in relation 2 the car.

[marvis]

Interesting read!

[sundee]

The reason an equal length setup doesnt twist is because the arms are equal length and have equal arcs up and down, so the diff moves perfectly up and down as oppossed 2 haveing differing arcs that cause the diff 2 twist as it rises and falls in relation 2 the car.

yep yep, sweet i understand that! cheers sr_rolla

its an interesting topic.
mayb im going to have to sacrafice my rear seat for a rear end that works right. decisions.. it will be a streeter/track but more aiming at the track side..

[Skylar]

http://www.afcoracing.com/tech_pages/4link.shtml

Haven't read it but looks interesting enough. Might learn something from it.

And to run solid arms, the arms must be parallel. and parallel to the ground to rid roll steer.

So much effort can go to designing this stuff. Just put bushes in stock trailing links/buy BV links and go drive. Spend the rest of the money on D-max aero.

[Konakid]

Skylar and SR Rolla ftw.

+1 to just chuck some poly bushes in for 200 then drive the thing!

[sundee]

thanks skylar nice link.. ill be having a good read of that.. just after some home made pizza's ;)

[Sam-Q]

hey guys I dont know if its any help but I have my rear suspension guide back online

http://s-86.com/s-5linkrear.html

[Skylar]

So, now that you've brought up anti-squat, I have a question. Does anti-squat do anything other than change the ratio of geometric load transfer to elastic load transfer? The load is still tranferred from front to rear as the car accelerates and the only way to change the load is to reduce the CG height and/or increase the wheelbase.

It's the same as roll centres and cornering, right? You raise the roll centre the body rolls less because more load transfer happens through the links and less through springs/arb?

Am I on the right track?

[Sam-Q]

well ok you lost me, would you be kind enough to explain elastic load transfer? geometric load transfer is pretty self explainitry